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  • First post here :) Been a avid follower since I played and have watched many let's plays/views/analysis videos on the game as it's stuck with me for so long. GOTY easily, if not the best game (story wise) to be released in...forever.

    So, recently the Creative Director Neil Druckmann explains his take on the ending - contary to what everyone believed e.g she accepted Joels lie because she didn't want to break their bond etc

    http://o.canada.com/2013/09/17/the-last-of-us-how-the-games-creator-envisions-its-ending/

    “Then we come to that ending and that lie and that okay and what does that okay mean? It’s definitely not a complacent ‘yea I’ll go along with you’, in fact, it’s the opposite. It’s Ellie waking up for the first time, waking up and realizing she can’t rely on him anymore. While she loves him for what he’s done for her, she hates him for robbing her of that choice. She knows that she has to leave him and make her own decisions and mistakes.”

    What does everybody think about this? To me, it sounds more like we can release TLOU2 focusing on Ellie as she knows she has to leave him rather than the actual intended meaning of the ending. I can't really express how I feel about it - I don't understand why Ellie would have thought about the future with Joel and be so visibly upset in the ranch scene when he wants to leave her (the point where you realize that they basically are Father/Daughter - best cut scene in gaming history too imo may I add) if she was only going on this journey because she felt safest with Joel to get her there and would have been happy to give her own life and leave Joel with absolutely nothing losing a second daughter. Especially considering the whole Winter where she is caring for him, sleeping next to him etc. 

    I know it's explained/mentioned off-hand that they only think it's a case of a simple blood sample and not Ellie having to die - so would she have been happier to accept Joels lie knowing the true intentions of the Fireflies and the circumstances? I just can't see that being the case if she knew everything - plus the fact that a vaccine really wouldn't have changed anything at that stage considering it had been 20 years since the outbreak. Ellie's smart, she would have known something was up for Joel to have lied to her - and obviously would have known it was because she would be have been sacraficed or have had to have stayed with the Fireflies, otherwise she'd have just given blood - thats it. I know there's no Black and White especially in this game, but I just don't know what to make of it. I guess you tend to forget she's a confused 14 year old girl who is looking for a father figure (in the comics I believe she asks one of the Military if she can go with him) but then suffering from Survivors Guilt and the emotional trauma of what happened with David. I guess it's the fact she was still just a kid, and couldn't have comprehended everything and felt she could stop more cases like Sam, Tess etc happening.

    I almost don't want to believe this is the intended ending - it's pretty brutal and grim to say Ellie hates Joel for not giving her the choice when Ellie was all Joel had to live for. But then I guess you could argue was Joel actually in the wrong for using Ellie as a replacement for his daughter - and would he have cared as much if he never had a daughter to begin with? So many questions. My take on it was simple - even though she seemed hesitant and troubled she couldn't stop other cases like Tess, Sam and her best friend Ellie accepted Joels lie because she loved him like a Dad and didn't care about anything else at that stage. But I guess in retrospect with how distant she seemed, how disinterested she was when Joel mentioned her and Sarah being friends etc and how hesitant she was at the end...did she really grow to hate Joel and realize his motives were purely based on her being a replacement for his daughter?


    Thoughts? 

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    • I'd like the link to the original article, pls post if you have it.

      EDIT: Nevermind, I've found it: http://o.canada.com/2013/09/17/the-last-of-us-how-the-games-creator-envisions-its-ending/

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    • It's indeed shocking. I was recently discussed this matter too with a contributor. But I'm not surprised, I already have the feeling that it might be that way.

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    • I think if Ellie knew exactly what was involved she wouldn't have felt that way though - I guess this is why we crave a sequel or more story because it's not known at that point what Ellie thinks actually happened. She's a smart kid so know something was up. Does she think the Fireflies wanted to hold her for a period of time just to study her and Joel went ape shit and killed them all? Or did she really think she would have to give her life possibly in vain. 

      I think it's hard to judge really as you forget she's only 14 - so I feel Joel made the correct decision for her in a sense as she is too young to think about giving her life away when there are other options such as Tommys and a vaccine wouldn't guarentee nothing. She wouldn't understand that and would only act on her first feelings and she obviously felt guilt for everyone who became infected and died. But on the other hand - was Joel merely using Ellie to help him with his own guilt and nothing more? Did he really want Ellie to experience the outside world and the beauty of freedom at Tommys teaching her all those things or did he just feel she was a replacement for his daughter? Man...this game.

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    • No, what Joel did is much more meaningful than that. But it just like you said, we all forget that Ellie is only 14, and always an orphan in her whole life. She is yet to understand Joel's love to her.

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    • Mikey333 wrote:
      No, what Joel did is much more meaningful than that. But it just like you said, we all forget that Ellie is only 14, and always an orphan in her whole life. She is yet to understand Joel's love to her.


      I do feel that Joel was mainly motivated by subconciously replacing Sarah though. The way he says And you - at the end and touches the watch his daughter gave him. I want to feel that Joel was 100% sane and had just grown to love her as a daughter even if he hadn't lost Sarah - but i'm not so sure it's that clear. Did he really want to teach Ellie all those things out of love or did he just want to make her more like Sarah?

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    • He is sane. He sees and love Ellie as a daughter, and thats why he didnt see her as equal, which makes Ellie feel distant with him.

      EDIT: I answered before you edited your post. Need adjustments.

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    • Mikey333 wrote:
      He is. He sees her as a daughter, and thats why he didnt see her as equal, which makes Ellie feel distant with him.


      Do you think that Joel was more motivated by replacing Sarah than his love for Ellie though? Like does he see Ellie as Ellie or does he see Ellie as a second chance to have a life with Sarah if that makes sense? I guess it depends on how sane he is. He remarks how he wants to teach her all these things that Sarah liked, and how him and Sarah used to go on hikes like this etc. Did he truely love Ellie as a daughter or did he just see her as a second chance to get over his guilt at losing Sarah? More like trying to save himself emotionally than doing the right thing. 

      I do believe Ellie grew to love him though - especially the ranch scene when she runs away and is visibily upset (that scene still gets me..) and caring for him during the winter. But was this purely out of having faith in Joel for getting her to the Fireflies? I just don't see how Ellie can be so upset with Joel when she knows he lost his daughter and knew they were growing close, begging him to take her with him. I don't see how she can be upset with him when she brang it on herself if you like. So many ways of interpretting it.

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    • No, he didnt objectify Ellie as such. He just back into a loving human again. And by saying abt Sarah to Ellie, he is opening himself to Ellie. He only wants to spend time with Ellie more just like how he did with Sarah in the past, as simple as that.

      Ellie loves him, but not as a dad or a father, but as a person equal to her.

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    • Mikey333 wrote:
      No, he didnt objectify Ellie as such. He just back into a loving human again. And by saying abt Sarah to Ellie, he is opening himself to Ellie. He only wants to spend time with Ellie more just like how he did with Sarah in the past, as simple as that.

      Ellie loves him, but not as a dad or a father, but as a person equal to her.


      I do agree that he does turn more natural nearer the end - it's not like he starts calling Ellie by Sarahs name but he does call her baby girl which he only called Sarah in the start. 

      I do think Ellie loves him like a father though - I think she's lacked a father figure her whole life and even in one of the comics she begs one of the military guys to take her with him and he says he has his own family to care for and she's like you mean you won't - whatever. In my head I want a happy ending where they live out their lives at Tommys like Father and Daughter but I don't think it will be like that.

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    • I don't get that at all,why would Ellie finally hate him after all that and when they can finally live happily now? Ellie does not hate Joel,it is quite the opposite. If she did why did she say ok? she says ok is because she knows hes lying but she wants to let it go to be with him. This goes entirely against the bond the game was building. I sure hope this is not a story arc for a possible sequel

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    • RifIeEyez wrote:

      Mikey333 wrote:
      No, he didnt objectify Ellie as such. He just back into a loving human again. And by saying abt Sarah to Ellie, he is opening himself to Ellie. He only wants to spend time with Ellie more just like how he did with Sarah in the past, as simple as that.

      Ellie loves him, but not as a dad or a father, but as a person equal to her.


      I do agree that he does turn more natural nearer the end - it's not like he starts calling Ellie by Sarahs name but he does call her baby girl which he only called Sarah in the start. 

      I do think Ellie loves him like a father though - I think she's lacked a father figure her whole life and even in one of the comics she begs one of the military guys to take her with him and he says he has his own family to care for and she's like you mean you won't - whatever. In my head I want a happy ending where they live out their lives at Tommys like Father and Daughter but I don't think it will be like that.

      You still forget Ellie is an orphan which means she never know what a father is. She cant love someone as a father since no one taught her that. And that dialogue you refer in the comic basically tell us that she doesnt see adult/old person as superior. She treats everyone equally.

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    • Lolsniperftw28 wrote:
      I don't get that at all,why would Ellie finally hate him after all that and when they can finally live happily now? Ellie does not hate Joel,it is quite the opposite. If she did why did she say ok? she says ok is because she knows hes lying but she wants to let it go to be with him. This goes entirely against the bond the game was building. I sure hope this is not a story arc for a possible sequel


      Yeah this is what I think - I think it's more setting up a second game where Ellie leaves Joel than her true feelings. If they just said yeah, Ellie accepts his lie as she realizes Joel will do anything to protect her and they live happily ever after doesn't leave room for a sequel.

      I guess how you describe it is the way I and everyone else want it to be - but I'm scared that actually the whole dynamic of them growing to love eachother was more Joel replacing Sarah in his head than loving Ellie and Ellie is disappointed and wants to leave Joel (hence why she stops and hesitates before going into Tommys - we never actually see her go towards him like she was gonna stay)

      I can almost picture the second game starting from that whole cut-scene and when she says okay she explains how she doesn't want to go to Tommys and then the second game starts.

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    • RifIeEyez wrote:
      Lolsniperftw28 wrote:
      I don't get that at all,why would Ellie finally hate him after all that and when they can finally live happily now? Ellie does not hate Joel,it is quite the opposite. If she did why did she say ok? she says ok is because she knows hes lying but she wants to let it go to be with him. This goes entirely against the bond the game was building. I sure hope this is not a story arc for a possible sequel

      Yeah this is what I think - I think it's more setting up a second game where Ellie leaves Joel than her true feelings. If they just said yeah, Ellie accepts his lie as she realizes Joel will do anything to protect her and they live happily ever after doesn't leave room for a sequel.

      I guess how you describe it is the way I and everyone else want it to be - but I'm scared that actually the whole dynamic of them growing to love eachother was more Joel replacing Sarah in his head than loving Ellie and Ellie is disappointed and wants to leave Joel (hence why she stops and hesitates before going into Tommys - we never actually see her go towards him like she was gonna stay)

      I can almost picture the second game starting from that whole cut-scene and when she says okay she explains how she doesn't want to go to Tommys and then the second game start

      I guess that sorta makes sense to set up a sequel. Maybe Ellie doesn't necessarily hate him but wants to make her own decisions? My problem is It goes against the bond the first game was building up, and Ellie is pretty loyal. Like she didnt leave Marlene easily, she never went anywhere without Joel even though he was being a dick to her and I think she knows what she means to Joel, Ellie is not really the one to leave someone behind. Ellie doing that would hurt Joel emotionally once again and Joel has been hurt there way too many times. Interesting really,because your not sure what she would do there. It sorta makes sense for her to leave him since like any other teen she is probably tired of being told what to do and wants to make her own choices,but then again she is a loyal person and after all they have been through I dont really see her doing that and hurting Joel again since she knows how much he has been through emotionally even before their journey.

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    • Lolsniperftw28 wrote:
      RifIeEyez wrote:
      Lolsniperftw28 wrote:
      I don't get that at all,why would Ellie finally hate him after all that and when they can finally live happily now? Ellie does not hate Joel,it is quite the opposite. If she did why did she say ok? she says ok is because she knows hes lying but she wants to let it go to be with him. This goes entirely against the bond the game was building. I sure hope this is not a story arc for a possible sequel

      Yeah this is what I think - I think it's more setting up a second game where Ellie leaves Joel than her true feelings. If they just said yeah, Ellie accepts his lie as she realizes Joel will do anything to protect her and they live happily ever after doesn't leave room for a sequel.

      I guess how you describe it is the way I and everyone else want it to be - but I'm scared that actually the whole dynamic of them growing to love eachother was more Joel replacing Sarah in his head than loving Ellie and Ellie is disappointed and wants to leave Joel (hence why she stops and hesitates before going into Tommys - we never actually see her go towards him like she was gonna stay)

      I can almost picture the second game starting from that whole cut-scene and when she says okay she explains how she doesn't want to go to Tommys and then the second game start

      I guess that sorta makes sense to set up a sequel. Maybe Ellie doesn't necessarily hate him but wants to make her own decisions? My problem is It goes against the bond the first game was building up, and Ellie is pretty loyal. Like she didnt leave Marlene easily, she never went anywhere without Joel even though he was being a dick to her and I think she knows what she means to Joel, Ellie is not really the one to leave someone behind. Ellie doing that would hurt Joel emotionally once again and Joel has been hurt there way too many times. Interesting really,because your not sure what she would do there. It sorta makes sense for her to leave him since like any other teen she is probably tired of being told what to do and wants to make her own choices,but then again she is a loyal person and after all they have been through I dont really see her doing that and hurting Joel again since she knows how much he has been through emotionally even before their journey.


      Exactly, I agree with your last point. She was the one who forced it on Joel to take her even knowing about his past with Sarah and doesn't want to leave him. I can't see the logic in this, and her caring for him all through winter, if she was prepared to eventually leave him. I mean, ignoring the whole fucked up way of life she had, we forget that she's just 14 then turning 15, even in this world too young to make any real decisions.

      Also I think if she knew the truth she wouldn't leave. However, her asking Joel if he was lying is curious - was she aware that she was gonna have to give her life (did she get told between being revived then drugged, how long were they out for?) and was just testing him to see how much he truely cared, or was she 100% unaware and revived/drugged straight away for surgery?

      I know Marlene says it's what she would have wanted that suggests she wasn't aware, but perhaps she was? I almost love how you can question this game so much and don't want a sequel, but I do want one if it's well done and explains a lot of the gaps. 

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    • She doesnt know it, she only has her very sharp bullsh*t detector. And she is suspecting Joel for something. If she indeed sees Joel as a father, she will try to accept his lie without further questioning until the truth reveal itself to her. And as hinted by Druckmann himself, she is not seeing him as such.

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    • Mikey333 wrote:
      She doesnt know it, she only has her very sharp bullsh*t detector. And she is suspecting Joel for something. If she indeed sees Joel as a father, she will try to accept his lie without further questioning until the truth reveal itself to her. And as hinted by Druckmann himself, she is not seeing him as such.


      Is there anything that i've missed, but is it 100% certain she isn't aware of anything from the drowning to when she wakes up in the car? I may have missed some small part/trivia - i know Marlene says it's what she would have wanted like she didn't have a choice - idk if one of the tape recorders hint at Ellie being unaware (I think one shows Marlene is a bit crazy like she'll be with you soon Anna) which sounds like Ellie had no choice, but idk.

      The thing is, it depends on what she suspects. Does she think they just wanted her for testing and Joel to leave, and he went crazy? Or does she know she was gonna be killed and he saved her life because he felt it was right? I think it's impossible to judge the ending cuz of that...If she loves him like a Father, there's no way she could hold it against him for saving her if she knew that a) a vaccine wasn't guarenteed b) they could still survive at Tommys - what would a vaccine do apart from protect a rebel group and c) everyone was split morally/socially anyway, a vaccine would never have brang these people together imo. In a selfish way, why not live self sufficently - people were managing in their own ways, and even with a vaccine how long would it take to re-build the world?

      I feel like yeah, Ellie would/could have hate for him at first, as she clearly wasn't coping well with the loss of people to the infected (Sam/Tess/Riley not the people they'd killed necessarily), so would have wanted to prevent any more cases, but over time realized there was a good chance it would be in vain and Joel, the one person who never left her, would have nothing left...so I can't see her deciding it was wrong and leaving.

      idk.

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    • Well me too i feel it abit too much if Ellie is going to hate Joel (i know she might hate him but I dont think it would be that easy). There is clearly something in between but it wont be abt her being awake at the hospital, cos she clearly not. Her guilt and doubt at the ending is genuine.

      As abt how to understand why Ellie do this or that, you need to see everything from her point of view, her ego. You need to abandon everything that we know from 3rd person perspective. Druckmann stated that she tried to win respect from Joel, forces him to respect her as equal, and she never get that from him. It basically explain everything.

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    • Mikey333 wrote:
      Well me too i feel it abit too much if Ellie is going to hate Joel (i know she might hate him but I dont think it would be that easy). There is clearly something in between but it wont be abt her being awake at the hospital, cos she clearly not. Her guilt and doubt at the ending is genuine.

      As abt how to understand why Ellie do this or that, you need to see everything from her point of view, her ego. You need to abandon everything that we know from 3rd person perspective. Druckmann stated that she tried to win respect from Joel, forces him to respect her as equal, and she never get that from him. It basically explain everything.


      Do you feel that Joel views Ellie as his adopted daughter but Ellie views him as a friend more than a father? I know Druckmann mentioned about being equal/winning his respect, but is that from a companion PoV or a Father/Daughter relationship? It's so hard to describe their relationship which makes the game even more beautiful. 

      I guess the ending would be easier to take if we knew that Ellie was aware she would have to die and that the vaccine would 100% work and everyone would be happy.

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    • Father daughter relationship is how we the players see them. Daughter/kid is how Joel sees Ellie, and for how Ellie sees Joel, I have no exact term for it, the closest one is life partner, a very close person for life. I interpret her desire to win respect is to be acknowledged as a capable person to become a partner, a trustworthy teamplayer in Joel's eye.

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    • Mikey333 wrote:
      Father daughter relationship is how we the players see them. Daughter/kid is how Joel sees Ellie, and for how Ellie sees Joel, I have no exact term for it, the closest one is life partner, a very close person for life. I interpret her desire to win respect is to be acknowledged as a capable person to become a partner, a trustworthy teamplayer in Joel's eye.


      Do you think thats' why Ellie mentioned Sarah at the ranch and said i'm not her because she knew Joel felt like she was his daughter? it's strange - I wonder as a kid how that would feel. Did she feel comfortable with it? It's a weird relationship for sure. In a way, i'm sure it's not viewed this way by Ellie, but it's almost creepy knowing to this guy you're in some sense a replacement to his dead daughter or a tool to help him grieve and get over his Survivors Guilt. 

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    • In my opinion, Ellie just doesnt want to be treated like a kid, and in that ranch house scene she realised now why Joel treat her like a kid (overprotective) and she doesnt want that. If you noticed there are so many hints where she didnt want to be treated that way along the game. And why would she feel uncomfortable with that? She seeks for entitlement, that she wants to be seen as a capable person in Joel's eyes.

      And again Joel doesnt objectify her, he didnt make her as a tool or something. Being close with Ellie bring back his memory that he was once a father, its natural for him to feel it that way especially it was his reason to blame himself.

      EDIT: Didnt really catch your questions before, sorry.

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    • RifIeEyez wrote:

      Do you think thats' why Ellie mentioned Sarah at the ranch and said i'm not her because she knew Joel felt like she was his daughter? it's strange - I wonder as a kid how that would feel. Did she feel comfortable with it? It's a weird relationship for sure. In a way, i'm sure it's not viewed this way by Ellie, but it's almost creepy knowing to this guy you're in some sense a replacement to his dead daughter or a tool to help him grieve and get over his Survivors Guilt. 

      You know, this has me thinking... When Joel says 'you keep finding something to fight for," obviously talking about Ellie, isn't he basically indirectly telling her "you're the only thing keeping me alive?" Wouldn't that make her feel MORE guilty? It's kind of a subtle emotional blackmail. 

      And Druckman's statement above actually is more aligned with my original feelings about the ending. I really didn't, and still dont really, like Joel. Some other people on here really swayed me and made me think I was being too hard on Joel. But really, I think he's a dangerous person. I don't necessarily think we're supposed to "like" or idolize Joel, but Ellie does, for a while. But after the hospital, I think she's starting to finally "wake up," as Druckman said, to the idea that maybe this relationship isn't completely healthy. I mean, you can see it in that final chapter when you're playing as her, listening to Joel ramble on about Sarah. I mean, imagine if you were in a relationship with someone and they were constantly talking about "oh, me and my Ex used to do this, it was so fun!" or "You know, my Ex used to play guitar, I should teach you!" It's kind of messed up, although everything in TLOU is pretty messed up, haha. 

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    • I dont think we can blame Joel or anything for that. It was their situation that is awkward, Joel always see Ellie like a kid and of course he cant compare that such like "my Ex used to play guitar etc." Cos in his eyes Ellie is a kid and he can be close with her like a daughter, not as someone to be respected as equal such as Ex.

      It just in Ellie's eyes, she wishes to be equal in Joel's eyes. She wants Joel see her as Ellie, not as daughter, not as Sarah replacement. Ellie always call Joel with his name, she respect Joel as Joel. You know everyone in the game call Joel with other names such as Texas, Old Brother, Dad, etc. but Ellie doesnt, even after they got close, she calls him Joel.

      This is my opinion.

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    • @Mikey333,I totally agree withyou,he sees her as a kid in his eyes,not like his new GF or somekind like that....like in the fanficts things like that if you know what I mean.....

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    • Mikey333 wrote:
      I dont think we can blame Joel or anything for that. It was their situation that is awkward, Joel always see Ellie like a kid and of course he cant compare that such like "my Ex used to play guitar etc." Cos in his eyes Ellie is a kid and he can be close with her like a daughter, not as someone to be respected as equal such as Ex.

      It just in Ellie's eyes, she wishes to be equal in Joel's eyes. She wants Joel see her as Ellie, not as daughter, not as Sarah replacement. Ellie always call Joel with his name, she respect Joel as Joel. You know everyone in the game call Joel with other names such as Texas, Old Brother, Dad, etc. but Ellie doesnt, even after they got close, she calls him Joel.

      This is my opinion.

      Yeah, but does Joel REALLY fully see her as Ellie, and not a replacement? I mean, the ending in the hospital was basically the prologue with Sarah, in reverse. It seems like the game is suggesting that he's really just transferred (in the psychological sense: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transference) his feelings towards Sarah onto Ellie, and used the situation in the hospital to "correct" his losing Sarah in the beginning. 

      My point with the "Ex" example was not to say that their relationship is like a romantic one, but that it's unhealthy to be in a relationship, ANY type of relationship, with someone, and for one person to be constantly talking about the previous person who fulfilled that role in the relationship. Like, if you were someone's adopted child, and they were always bringing up/comparing you to their previous child who died, wouldn't that make you uncomfortable? No one likes to feel like they're living in the shadow of another person. 

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    • Well you have a point, maybe Joel was starting to open himself up and that's why he is confusing her with Sarah. Nevertheless, to me its understandable and I dont regard that as dangerous except if we want a certain result.

      But the point of my post is he dont regard her as equal. I know you dont mean a romantic relationship, my point is, an Ex is (or was) an equal person. While Joel kinda sees her like a subordinate. Thus explains logically why he unconciously made such a comparison. This is the main problem with Ellie, cos as Druckmann stated, Ellie spent her time to win his respect and wanted him see her as an equal (person) to him. Explains logically why she is angry that Joel robbed her choice.

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    • I think that Neil Druckmann didn't actually mean that Ellie hates Joel. But much more that Ellie is dissapointed in him.

      Also, by Ellie leaving Joel, i guess that that could also mean Ellie starting to make her own decisions.  All of her life, people have made decisions for her... Ellie won't leave Joel though.    Because while they did say that Ellie hated Joel because of him taking away her decision, she also loves him.

      If Ellie would leave Joel that would be the worst thing that could happen in the game (in my opinion. Not worst as in bad, but in terms sadness. What Neil Druckmann said really made me feel sorry for Joel. He loves Ellie, but she doesn't seem to love him as much.

      And Ellie thinking about leaving, that really makes me feel like all that they have been through was... worthless.    That their relationship wasn't that special after all...     man, that hurts.

      I kept telling myself that even though they didn't get a vaccine, it was't for nothing. I kept telling myself that it can't be for nothing. I thought that the relationship that they have established was worth it. But hearing that Ellie could even go as far as to leave Joel, i guess that after all, it was for nothing. And it wasn't worth it.

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    • I think Druckmann means Ellie is only going to leave Joel emotionally, not physically. It could mean she is more independent and doesnt need (or maybe doesnt want) Joel to watch over her.

      And I want to correct abit abt your sentence, "she doesn't seem to love him as much". In my view she did love him very much, but it's quite unrequited cos Joel never see her as equal person. After what she done, man, she risked even her life for him its not something usual. And she only has this wish that Joel will recognise her as equal person, to become his trustworthy partner, and Joel never see her that way. It made her distant with him.

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    • Probably he doesn't quite see her as an equal person because he was her guardian. And that is a fact. He took care of her, and franky, she never would have made it without him.             When they were fighting against hunters or infected they weren't equal, because Ellie isn't as capable as Joel is (handling these situation). So he had to take care of her.         Maybe he does see her as an equal- But in these situations, it would be stupid if she would put herself in as much danger as Joel does because they are equal.

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    • Gear3ful wrote:
      I think that Neil Druckmann didn't actually mean that Ellie hates Joel. But much more that Ellie is dissapointed in him.

      Also, by Ellie leaving Joel, i huess that that could also mean Ellie starting to make her own decisions.  All of her life, people have made decisions for her... iEllie won't leave Joel though.    Because while they did say that Ellie hated Joel because of him taking away her decision, she also loves him.

      If Ellie would leave Joel that would be the worst thing that could happen in the game (in my opinion. Not worst as in bad, but in terms sadness. Man, what Neil Druckmann said really made me feel sorry for Joel. He loves Ellie, but she doesn't seem to love him as much.

      And Ellie thinking about leaving, that really makes me feel like all that they have been through was... worthless.    That their relationship wasn't that special after all...     man, that hurts.

      I kept telling myself that even though they didn't get a vaccine, it was't for nothing. I kept telling myself that it can't be for nothing. I thought that the relationship that they have established was worth it. But hearing that Ellie could even go as far as to leave Joel, i guess that after all, it was for nothing. And it wasn't worth it.

      Exactly,this is my problem with it, a major point of the game is the bond between the two that builds towards the whole journey,and its the reason Joel even doomed humanity for it. So after all that, its broken in the second game just because Ellie wants to be free and make decisions? She didn't let him down or leave him that entire journey and she starts when its over and they are free,all over something thats not even a big deal? You basically doomed humanity for no reason then. I dont see Ellie doing that,and its a disservice to the first game and its ending. I would feel so bad for Joel if that happened,nothing ever goes right in his life  :(

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    • @Gear3ful

      Exactly, its very hard for Joel to set his mind to see Ellie as equal. We cant blame him, it is his duty to deliver Ellie unharmed in anyway possible. Which in turn set his mind to be her protector. Which in turn reminded him of Sarah, someone he fail to protect in his past.

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    • Lolsniperftw28 wrote:
      Exactly,this is my problem with it, a major point of the game is the bond between the two that builds towards the whole journey,and its the reason Joel even doomed humanity for it. So after all that, its broken in the second game just because Ellie wants to be free and make decisions? She didn't let him down or leave him that entire journey and she starts when its over and they are free,all over something thats not even a big deal? You basically doomed humanity for no reason then. I dont see Ellie doing that,and its a disservice to the first game and its ending. I would feel so bad for Joel if that happened,nothing ever goes right in his life  :(

      Its abit exaggerating abt Ellie wants to be free and make decision. Its completely no problem for a girl to demand her right.

      Ellie's desire for equality is mix of her ego and her feeling, she grew up in orphanage where everyone is equal and nobody is special. Thus she wants her existence acknowledged and entitled, this is her ego. Her guilt abt Tess is what led her to start caring for Joel, she started to like him after they left Bill and feel like he is her partner. After they both lost Henry & Sam, thats when she started to feel Joel is special person for her. She loves him after that ranch house scene, understanding that he sees her as a daughter figure.

      The problem is, her ego still remains, she wants her goal finished and its still hard for her to accept everything as it is without her consent. This in turn made her loves and angry with Joel at same time.

      I'm not trying to defend anything, just trying to make sense of everything.

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    • Mikey333 wrote:
      Lolsniperftw28 wrote:
      Exactly,this is my problem with it, a major point of the game is the bond between the two that builds towards the whole journey,and its the reason Joel even doomed humanity for it. So after all that, its broken in the second game just because Ellie wants to be free and make decisions? She didn't let him down or leave him that entire journey and she starts when its over and they are free,all over something thats not even a big deal? You basically doomed humanity for no reason then. I dont see Ellie doing that,and its a disservice to the first game and its ending. I would feel so bad for Joel if that happened,nothing ever goes right in his life  :(
      Its abit exaggerating abt Ellie wants to be free and make decision. Its completely no problem for a girl to demand her right.

      Ellie's desire for equality is mixed of her ego and her feeling, she grew in orphanage where everyone is equal and nobody is special. Thus she wants her existence acknowledged and entitled, this is her ego. Her guilt abt Tess is what led her to start caring for Joel, she started to like him after they left Bill and feel like he is her partner. After they both lost Henry & Sam, thats when she started to feel Joel is special person for her. She loves him after that ranch house scene, understanding that he sees her as a daughter figure.

      The problem is, her ego still remains, she wants her goal finished and its still hard for her to accept everything as it is without her consent. This in turn made her loves and angry with Joel at same time.

      I'm not try to defend anything, just trying to make sense of everything.


      I dont think its illogical for Ellie to be mad at him,its makes sense,she thinks all she did was for nothing since they didnt cure the world. But for Ellie to leave him feels like all their bonding moments,dooming humanity at the end, and theyre growing relationship which is a major part of the game had no point to it, if it all of it would just lead to Ellie leaving him. I also think if Ellie knew the truth and thought about it she wouldn't leave

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    • Exactly, I just think Druckmann means she leaves him emotionally, not physically. It could mean she just get more independent. Joel is still there with her, but maybe not as significant as before.

      But, aside from the result which they achieve nothing, Joel did save her, for him it means everything, and I'm sure by time goes Ellie will understand his action.

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    • Gear3ful wrote:
      I think that Neil Druckmann didn't actually mean that Ellie hates Joel. But much more that Ellie is dissapointed in him.

      Also, by Ellie leaving Joel, i huess that that could also mean Ellie starting to make her own decisions.  All of her life, people have made decisions for her... iEllie won't leave Joel though.    Because while they did say that Ellie hated Joel because of him taking away her decision, she also loves him.

      If Ellie would leave Joel that would be the worst thing that could happen in the game (in my opinion. Not worst as in bad, but in terms sadness. Man, what Neil Druckmann said really made me feel sorry for Joel. He loves Ellie, but she doesn't seem to love him as much.

      And Ellie thinking about leaving, that really makes me feel like all that they have been through was... worthless.    That their relationship wasn't that special after all...     man, that hurts.

      I kept telling myself that even though they didn't get a vaccine, it was't for nothing. I kept telling myself that it can't be for nothing. I thought that the relationship that they have established was worth it. But hearing that Ellie could even go as far as to leave Joel, i guess that after all, it was for nothing. And it wasn't worth it.

      Excellent, excellent post. To address your last point, I don't think that Druckman is saying their relationship was for nothing just because she may leave Joel. He still says that she loves him, just that she resents him for denying her that choice and lying to her. I think he was just saying that Ellie was realizing that she can't stay with him forever, not that she's gonna leave him immediately. I think up until that point, she kind of saw Joel as any daughter would see their parent- as a sort of infallible person with unconditonal trust. And up until that point she was so used to following other people's lead. But I think in that moment she realized that Joel is an imperfect human being. It's something that really any child goes through in growing up and not relying on their parents so much. It was obviously just way more dramatic for the two of them, haha. So, the journey was'nt "worthless," because Joel was able to sort of reclaim part of his humanity that he'd long buried, and Ellie bascially grew up into a more capable, independant young woman more suited for the world she lives in.  And they still love eachother and are important to eachother. I don't think that's pointless.

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    • Lolsniperftw28 wrote:
      ...But for Ellie to leave him feels like all their bonding moments,dooming humanity at the end, and theyre growing relationship which is a major part of the game had no point to it, if it all of it would just lead to Ellie leaving him. I also think if Ellie knew the truth and thought about it she wouldn't leave

      That's kind of a weird way to look at relationships. I mean, just because a relationship eventually comes to an end because of new circumstances doesn't invalidate those previous shared experiences. By that logic, every relationship that doesn't last until you die is worthless. Joel's choice put their relationship in jeapordy (as Druckman also said, he was willing to put everything on the line for Ellie-including their relationship), it would be naive to assume that they can just run off into the sunset together after Joel slaughtered all the fireflies and lied to Ellie about something that was so important to her (she needed closure at least.) Actions have consequences, sometimes unforseen ones. I for one was glad to see a game that actually made me think I (really Joel) had maybe made the wrong choice and showed actual negative consequences to those choices. 

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    • ^ Yeah. What a game, indeed....

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    • I guess it wasn't quite worthles.   Because as MayonEgg said, Jole regained his humanity.      Well, at last there is still some hope that she just becomes more independent instead of leaving Joel.      Just imagining a sequence where Ellie takes off without telling Joel...        Joel will probably never be loved as much by Ellie as he loves her. And that is the really tragic thing about it.

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    • Yep. And I dont see her has any reason to leave him. Its too much to speculate that she will leave him physically just bcos he robbed that choice.

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    • MayonnEgg wrote:
      Lolsniperftw28 wrote:
      ...But for Ellie to leave him feels like all their bonding moments,dooming humanity at the end, and theyre growing relationship which is a major part of the game had no point to it, if it all of it would just lead to Ellie leaving him. I also think if Ellie knew the truth and thought about it she wouldn't leave
      That's kind of a weird way to look at relationships. I mean, just because a relationship eventually comes to an end because of new circumstances doesn't invalidate those previous shared experiences. By that logic, every relationship that doesn't last until you die is worthless. Joel's choice put their relationship in jeapordy (as Druckman also said, he was willing to put everything on the line for Ellie-including their relationship), it would be naive to assume that they can just run off into the sunset together after Joel slaughtered all the fireflies and lied to Ellie about something that was so important to her (she needed closure at least.) Actions have consequences, sometimes unforseen ones. I for one was glad to see a game that actually made me think I (really Joel) had maybe made the wrong choice and showed actual negative consequences to those choices. 

      Joel definetly made the wrong choice, you can't deny that. He could either A) let Ellie die for the greater good but most likely commit sucicide or live in agony once again  or B) He could finally live in happiness and safety,something he hasn't done in 20 years, even if it meant lying to her and taking away what she worked for.     He didn't make the right choice,but the right choice for him.  I liked that ND didn't go with the typical save the world thing that most zombie/end of the world movies or games do. They didn't give the player a choice because it's what Joel would have done. About consequences,well we have to wait to see how much that negatively affects their bond

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    • ^ Well I'm pretty sure I can deny that Joel didnt make a wrong choice. Joel definitely made the most humane choice, why you label his choice as wrong? What is the right choice according to you?

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    • His choice was very humanized, I'm pretty sure alot of people in Joel's place would have done the same thing. I dont blame Joel for doing what he did, I'm just saying he made the wrong choice for everyone esle by dooming humanity, and you can't deny that. But he did do the right choice for him and Ellie. The player is supposed to understand why he did it,and I do.

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    • I agree completely with Neils interpretation. I don't feeling like typing everything out so ill just post what I said in a different forum. Get ready, it's long:


      Ellie still cares about Joel a lot, but she knows now she can't trust him anymore. Throughout the whole journey Ellie wants to be treated as an equal by Joel. She wants Joel to trust her, and she wants to be able to trust Joel, but by the end when Joel lies to her, she sees it as Joel thinking she can't handle the truth and doesn't trust her with it. She wanted her life to mean something and that choice was taken away from her by someone she cared for, and more importantly, someone she trusted.

      As the article says, Ellie clings to parental figures because she thinks she needs to. First it was Marlene, than it was Joel. Both of them tried, and one succeeded, to take her choice away. When this choice is taken from her, Ellie realizes she must be able to make her own choices and mistakes and she has to stop clinging to parental figures.

      After thinking about it some more I have a different interpretation of the "Okay." I now see it as a way of Ellie saying to herself, "Okay. This is how it's going to be? You don't trust me to handle the truth? Fine. I'll go with you for now, and I still love you, but I know what I need to do because I can't trust you." Ellie seemed quite angry in that last conversation when she questions Joel.

      And whether or not you think the story needs it depends on how you interpret the ending. The problem here is that people are so set in their ways of thinking and wanting a happy ending that any interpretation that goes against that is wrong. Honestly, I never could see Joel and Ellie living happily ever after. It always seemed to be letting them off a little bit too easy.

      I'm sure if ND went this route, they do would do it in much more subtle and interesting way. Besides, this is just Neils interpretation, and he has said many times that there is no correct way to interpret it. Even Ellie's actress has a different interpretation.

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    • ^ i liked everything you write up there. Yours pretty much sum up my interpretation too. Kudos for that.

      Even if this is Neil's interpretation, i do think this is the most realistic and unbiased way to see their relationship.

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    • Now that i have thought about it for a while, i guess that i can agree with Mikey. I think that Ellie just will start to make her own decisions from now on. But she will stay with Joel.                But i now think that Ellie will never mean as much to Joel as Sarah did, because the love of Sarah and him was on both sides. While with Ellie i think that they agreed to spend their life together, and they love eachother. Ellie loves Joel more than anyone that she has loved before, but she was disapointed in him when he lied to her, because that means that he doesn't trust her with everything (as the guys above me said).

      But i think that after a while, she will understand why Joel did it, and then accept it.

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    • I dont know how to say, but seeing how things are, I guess I have to toss out my wish that they can become true father-daughter, and if she already angry with Joel just bcos he robbed that choice, how far is her reaction if she find out that Marlene is killed by Joel. Everything is unimaginable to me.

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    • Well,all I could say that Ellie hates Joel because Ellie thought that he will never admit the truth though inside himself,he really wanted to tall the truth to her but scared of her to runaway just like that and die cause all those journey they've been through is creating bonds for two of them.And Ellie definitely knew that he lied to her but she just can't make him sad and pissed by his own lies,so I think one day,Joel just HAD TO ADMIT HIS LIES, or just WANTED to admit.He will had to admit if the Fireflies rise again and she gonna ask him ,and he just had to admit and Ellie was hating him since he admits the truth to her but she could've just let it go,it already past and just be together again.And I believe, if there will be a continuing in their journey,bet this topic would be real as Neil said about how she hates Joel.I mean Ellie is everything for Joel now,he can't just make her mad like that,he needs to wait for  the right time to just admit.

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    • What if Ellie thinks that Joel took advantage of her unconsciousness to just go back without even reaching the hospital? After all, he said something like that just before the bus accident.

      (actually, it's not my interpretation, but I think it's another hypothesis that could fit the story)

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    • ^ That is unlikely, I really dont think Joel is the type of opportunist guy.

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    • And also, i guess that Ellie would rule out that possibility because she knows that Joel saved her because of a proper reason. Think about it, the thought that Ellie would just have to donate a little bit of blood or so... also, she had the operation clothes on.

      By the way, i don't think that Ellie hates Joel in any way. She is just a little disapointed in Joel (maybe because she didn't know his reasons). I guess that Neil Druckmann maybe meant that Ellie hates the fact that Joel lied...

      What do you think?

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    • What I afraid is, if Ellie loves him so much, it means she can also hate him very much. Love and hate is always together on different side at the same coin. I prefer to be abstain from any thought for awhile. Of course I'd like her to be with Joel, I just lost my direction on how to predict their relationship. Maybe Ellie will runaway like what she did at ranch house, and Joel looking for her. But unlike before where I can just trust my feeling, I'd like to see/hear it myself from ND how things will be going.

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    • Darn, the clothes. I forgot about that. And also the anesthesias. I guess it's a checkmate: try again, you'll be luckier XD.

      I think we shouldn't interpret that "hate" too literally: it's not like she's gonna slice his throat right after the credits. I think she genuinely cares for him (as implied throughout the game), but she's just disappointed about him lying.

      I admit that my interpretation of the story is much more convoluted than Neil's, but in the end I think that Bruce Straley really got it right when he said: "I like that it can be read different ways. Like we were talking about earlier with the title, just with the two little syllables of Ellie’s “ok” to Joel, depending on where your head space is when you get there and how committed you are toward Joel and his goals, how aligned you are with who he is versus how much you’re committed to Ellie and what her perspective is, that commitment that she had".

      Personally, I felt very aligned with Joel (except for the final lie) and that's one of the things I appreciated most about this game, its ability to connect the player with the characters.

      Here follows my interpretation of the story: I don't pretend to be "right" or to find the "truth", it's simply the explanation that most fits for myself.

      In the first part of the game, we see Joel as a very closed person, living (or better, surviving) for no particular reason. Ellie's personality is in stark contrast with his. Nothing suggested to me that she wanted to die (think about her jokes, when she plays with Sam, when she criticise the "die for the many" idea, when she asks about other kids, and so on).

      This slowly changes during the game: in particular, the winter chapter represents a turning point.

      While Ellie saves herself physically, she doesn't save herself psychologically. David still managed to "take away" something from her.

      The stabbing scene gave me goosebumps because that was the first time when violence seemed excessive to me: one or two hits would have sufficed, but no, she continued stabbing him in cold blood... until Joel arrived ("Stop!").

      After the winter chapter it's like she lost the will to fight, overwhelmed by that bleak world. Would she sacrifice herself at that point? I think so.But it's not a mature, weighted choice (like Tess' one), it's more of a suicidal desire.

      The giraffe part was heartwarming because (to me) showed that nevertheless, not everything is lost: I couldn't convince myself that a person who really wants to die still can be genuinely amazed by whatever.

      At that point, I was completely siding with Joel. Letting her to suicide was not the right thing to do. That was not respecting her wishes, was not the good thing for HER. 

      I found the escaping part to be very touching, because it showed how Ellie really was powerless (as symbolised by her unconsciousness), and abandoned by everyone.... except for Joel. 

      Even Marlene betrayed her. During my first playthrough, I thought that Marlene was like a mother to her: because of that, I felt her guilt was just hypocrite, not true. I was like: "How could you think even for a second to kill her, after you raised her for so many years?". 

      I was disgusted. 

      I know that ND tried to depict Marlene as a "neutral" character, but that didn't work with me: I agreed with Joel when he shot her. But as the American Dreams comics imply, Marlene actually didn't raise Ellie, she merely followed her from the distance, maybe with the help of the fireflies. So I guess now I can justify her a little bit more.

      So, about the final part, when Ellie confronts Joel right before Jackson County.

      When she mentioned Riley, Sam and Tess, Joel thought that she felt responsible for their deaths, and replied "None of that is on you".

      But Ellie replied "No, you don't understand". What did she mean?

      My interpretation is that she wasn't "waiting for her turn" because she felt obliged to die for her friends (that wouldn't bring them back anyway), but because she can't take it anymore. She's horrified by the world she lives in and just doesn't want to suffer anymore. She is still afraid to end up alone, her biggest fear.

      I interpret her swearing request as a challenge for Joel (she somehow connected the dots, though she can't figure the details, like Marlene being shot): how far, how far are you willing to go to save me?

      With his lie (which is the only thing I wouldn't have done) Joel crosses the final moral line: he saves Ellie even from herself.

      That's it. Just my two cents.

      As I said earlier in the post, it's just my interpretation, how I felt about the game.

      I honestly don't feel the need for a sequel, but if they do it someday, I think the storyline should stick with the author's original idea.

      I thought about Ellie's switchblade as a sign of settlement, but assuming Neil's interpretation, I guess we can see that as "I don't need any parental figures, neither a fatherly nor a motherly one" (the switchblade was a gift from Anna). I can imagine Ellie escaping from Tommy's dam during the night (much like how she already did in the game), leaving her knife.

      I apologise for this poorly written wall-of-text, but as someone may have noticed, I really enjoyed this game and I find interesting to exchange opinions about it.

      Trivia time XD: In the Italian version of the game, the fireflies are called "Luci" aka "Lights". This is because in Italian, firefly is a slang for "b.itch". I guess the fact that the fireflies' boss is actually... a female, would have made it even more awkward XD

      I wonder if ND knows about this... :)

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    • ^ This is a very nice writing! Well done! I like it, you just gave me enlightement on how to interpret her "hate". I like how you symbolise those actions happened in the game, I cant ever think abt that myself.

      And thanks for the trivia, nice to know that too :)

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    • I also really liked the post of the wikia contributor :)

      The obnly think that i don't 100 % agree with is that Ellie would leave her switchblade back.   I still think that the knife in the menu screen is a sign of settlement rather than one of "i don't any parental figures anymore".  And i don't think that Ellie would simply run away in the night. Because that would actually be a pretty stupid decision. Now tat i think about it, i don't think that Ellie would actually leave Joel. Not after everything that Ellie and Joel have done.

      And also, even though Ellie is a survivor, she hasn't got what it takes to survive in that world one her own yet...

      And besides, if Ellie would run away, where would she go?

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    • ^ You have to remember that Ellie is only 14. She's temperamental, rash, and generally doesn't think about the consequences of her actions.  Remember when she ran away on the horse? Joel was right, it was "pretty goddamn stupid." She ran away once, she can certainly do it again. 

      At that point when Ellie runs away to the ranch, she does it because she feels betrayed by Joel. It's the same thing with ending, only a much bigger betrayal. 

      You can look at the ending from multiple perspectives, which is why it's so damn good. There's Joel's, Marlenes, or the outside perspective as a player. The one I don't see people considering very much is Ellie's. You must see her POV to understand Neils interpretation.

      Joel screwed up. He thinks he's got Ellie believing his bullshit, but in reality all he did was ruin his chance at having a relationship with her.

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    • So basically nobody wins. The fireflies loses the cure and Joel loses the relationship with Ellie. But I believe Ellie will understand and forgive Joel.:) P.S. awesome comment from W.C. 79.47.111.216.:)

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    • I know Mikey showed me this before but I didn't read it until now.

      UGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHH :( :( That interpretation by the game's own creator is very disheartening.. I mean I can see a sequel where that happens where Ellie is disappointed in Joel and wants to leave. I can SEE it happening but that's still not how I interpretted the ending, otherwise Ellie's survivor's guilt becomes invalid in a way. Like there wouldn't have been a point in her expressing her guilt. Because her expressing her guilt allows the audience to accept Joel's actions, and the fact that Ellie didn't ask for details about what happened proves to me that.. she didn't want to know and in a way she feels better that Joel took the option away from her. If she was clearly upset she would have been, but her ending response - "Okay." - seemed like a relieved one. 

      I don't know, I don't want to sound like I'm in denial here or anything, but I don't feel like Joel is trying to place his feelings for Sarah on Ellie And I don't think Ellie takes Joel's comments about his daughter as a way of overshadowing her. Ellie doesn't see Joel as a father anyway. They have a mutual respect for one another, but she understands and realizes and ENCOURAGES him to remember and talk about his daughter. Joel hasn't talked about his daughter to ANYONE in 20 years! And Ellie gives Joel the picture of him and Sarah. She encourages him to open up about Sarah and Joel finally does. No doubt in the end him saving Ellie was a form of correcting his "mistake" with Sarah, but he also did it for the right reasons and simply because he cares about Ellie. A mother will always act motherly towards other people.. and the same is for Joel. Once he became a father, he will always act fatherly towards people. I REALLY didn't get from the game that Joel was trying to replace Sarah with Ellie.. at all. I mean it's been 20 years.. I don't think Joel would transfer his feelings on anyone else. And I don't get from their relationship that it's unhealthy at all. It's not like in the game Joel had dreams of Sarah turning into Ellie and Joel never accidentally called Ellie "Sarah." I think Joel and Ellie have a mutual respect but naturally he kind of treats her like a daughter and she respects him as a guardian. Joel only mentioned Sarah a few times at the end, it's not like he was doing it the whole game. He just felt comfortable and free to open up to Ellie about her. 

      I know the game creators have a different interpretation of the game's ending, but until they make a sequel proving this ending of theirs then I'm going to stick to my ending interpretation. If the games creators want to fully express the point of their story, then they'll make a sequel to prove that Joel and Ellie have an unhealthy relationship and that she's upset that Joel saved her. But until then, I like my interpretation better. And so, what? The sequel would be of Ellie trying to essentially committ suicide? Because she wanted to die in the first game but Joel saved her from making that decision. If that's what the sequel is going to be about then it sounds pretty dreary. 

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    • If the game creators really wanted its audience to walk away with that interpretation of the ending (what he said in the article posted) then he did a horrible job of making that clear since MOST people did not walk away from the game with that thought in mind. Maybe they did that on purpose for a sequel? Who knows. But if they want their audience to fully grasp that as the ending to TLOU then they'll make a sequel showing Ellie having run away or grown up and leaving Joel to find the Fireflies again or commit suicide or whatever.. I only say commit suicide because that's what Ellie wanted (was to die) in the first game because she felt so guilty for living. 

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    • Winterlotus90
      Winterlotus90 removed this reply because:
      Error
      06:43, September 30, 2013
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    • It's been stated in other articles though, that despite what the creators thought that the ending of the game was left up to interpretation since we have no clear evidence to suggest either Ellie knew he was lying and was secretly upset and couldn't trust Joel anymore (not what I believe) or that she had an idea he was lying, but she accepted his answer as a way out of her survivor's guilt (what I believe). The ending is perfect in that it is left up to the audience to figure it out for themselves. 

      And I wanted to add that I don't think Joel is replacing Sarah with Ellie.. that's very abnormal. Joel loves Sarah and misses her and does not feel the same way about Ellie. Ellie and Sarah are also vastly different. He just sees Ellie as.. the next thing worth living for. It's like.. if a husband loses his wife to cancer, he's expected to move on at some point. He wouldn't replace his wife with the next woman he falls in love with. He would love them separately in different ways. But the next woman entering his life would allow him to move on with life, and I think that's what Joel sees in Ellie - his opportunity at being a fatherly figure to someone once again. Just as Tess filled the void of love/companionship. 

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    • I know Neil is the the creative director for this game, but to assume that Ellie's final "Okay." was filled with hate towards Joel and she suddenly doesn't trust him anymore? That's so.. weak to say, lol. How could ANYONE infer that? Most people didn't. So.. if that's what the audience was SUPPOSED to receive from that talk between Joel and Ellie in the end, then like I said, they did a horrible job of getting that across to people in my opinion. And that's why I don't think that's what the ending was supposed to tell us. I'm really confused as to how Neil could say that. But he wasn't the only one working on the game, and perhaps that's merely HIS interpretation of the game. But to say that's how the ending was SUPPOSED to be interpreted? That really doesn't make sense, since the ending is supposed to be ambiguous.

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    • So,would in the second game,ND would finally tell the truth about her hateness towards Joel?I think I agreed about the wikia contributor who said that Ellie's a tempramental kid,but I guess if she grew up and more mature in facing it,I guess she will not hate Joel?????? I dunno but for some reason,I just thought that way,in alternate ending,if Tess caught him after the hospital event and she knew he was lying+she's tempramental+her crazy heat on her hateness towards him.....would she finally save Joel?Cause in my head,this thing keeps bothering me,so what do you all think?

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    • Hi :D

      Wow, the discussion is up again, I love this game XD

      I don't know if you guys already know about this, but there's more than what is transcribed in the o.canada article.Here's a very interesting recording of the IGDA Keynote (https://soundcloud.com/brian-sharon/neil-druckmann-keynote-sharon/ ).You can download it using the following website, for an easier playback (http://offliberty.com/ ).

      In the first part of the keynote, Neil talks about earlier versions of the story: the most interesting part (for me) starts at 36:35.

      At a certain point, Neil says something about "parents making sacrifice for their kids" (at 39:35), but unfortunately my listenings skill are poor so I can't understand exactly what he says. I have a theory about "parents making sacrifice", but if someone could transcribe it, I would be very grateful :)

      I agree with WinterLotus90 when she says that nothing clearly pointed out that Ellie "wakes up, starts to hate Joel and realizes that she has to leave him". When I heard that interpretation, I didn't feel like "jeez, that's the right insight that I wasn't able to see", instead I saw that as a personal interpretation, pretty much like ours, no more no less.

      However I don't think that Neil wanted to force the audience to interpret the story his way, after all they made a very open-up-to-interpretation ending. He's not a naive writer, and he's certainly aware of that.

      About an hypothetical sequel: I couldn't prevent myself to imagine something like this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jpoki4wBwtA (mentally replace Peter with Ellie and the chicken with Joel XD). 

      I think a sequel like that would be VERY unexpected, the public would be shocked for sure XD

      P.S: Also thanks for the appreciation to my previous post :)

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    • I'm 79.47.111.216, my IP address is dynamic

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    • Oh also here's an early interview with Neil, Bruce and Ashley: http://www.edge-online.com/features/the-last-of-us-the-definitive-postmortem-spoilers-be-damned/ 

      (in particular, the last two questions in the first page)

      As someone already said in this thread, it seems that even Ashley basically disagrees with Neil XD

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    • I dont think Ellie hates Joel after all he is her new "father"

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    • Winterlotus90 wrote:

      I agree with you about the interpretation of the ending. Neil's interpretation doesn't make 100% sense...

      And i am now quite sure that Neil Druckmann meant that Ellie would "leave Joel" in a way that she has to make her own decision from now on.

      Just one thing: I think that there is more between Joel and Ellie than just respect. The do love eachother. Maybe not as father and daughter but at least as people that each of them can rely on. Winterlotus90: Do you think that Ellie and Joel love eachother or do you think that they just respect eachother?

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    • Winterlotus90 wrote:
      I know Neil is the the creative director for this game, but to assume that Ellie's final "Okay." was filled with hate towards Joel and she suddenly doesn't trust him anymore? That's so.. weak to say, lol. How could ANYONE infer that? Most people didn't. So.. if that's what the audience was SUPPOSED to receive from that talk between Joel and Ellie in the end, then like I said, they did a horrible job of getting that across to people in my opinion. And that's why I don't think that's what the ending was supposed to tell us. I'm really confused as to how Neil could say that. But he wasn't the only one working on the game, and perhaps that's merely HIS interpretation of the game. But to say that's how the ending was SUPPOSED to be interpreted? That really doesn't make sense, since the ending is supposed to be ambiguous.

      It really isn't that difficult to interpret that way. Neil's interpretation is the one I agree with, and the one that I believe to be the most honest. 

      There is no interpretation that one is SUPPOSED to believe. Thats why it's ambiguous and open to interpretation. The fact that most people didn't get Neil's interpretation from the ending means nothing. The problem I have is that I see a lot of people acting as if Neil's interpretation is somehow wrong. It isn't. People are just so set in their interpretation and wanting a happily ever after ending that they can't possibly see anything else. It's a tragic story with a tragic, but very human, ending. 

      Stop thinking about it from Joel's perspective, or Marlene's, or the from your perspective as a player. You have to think about it from Ellie's. That's the only way you'll see Neil's interpretation. Read my first post in the thread if you want my reasoning behind the interpreation (I'm WC 24.57.145.242).

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    • 95.247.97.44 wrote:
      Oh also here's an early interview with Neil, Bruce and Ashley: http://www.edge-online.com/features/the-last-of-us-the-definitive-postmortem-spoilers-be-damned/ 

      (in particular, the last two questions in the first page)

      As someone already said in this thread, it seems that even Ashley basically disagrees with Neil XD

      Does this article talk about her disagreement with Neil? Or are you just saying she disagrees with Neil because her interpretation is different?

      I really like how the article mentions how the interpretations of the ending vary depending on how much the audience identifies with Joel and his motives and Ellie and her motives. How we relate to the characters (whether we like them or not based on their pasts, etc.) will ultimately determine the ending result. I can see MayonnEgg agreeing more with Neil's interpretation since she said she doesn't really like Joel. And then someone like me would agree more with Ashley's interpretation of the ending, because I feel like Joel's motives are good. That's the beauty of the ending is that, while we have to do all these crazy things throughout the game and make decisions that are unsettling for us (like gunning down the hospital staff), we finally get freedom to interpret the ending how we want to based on EVERYthing we saw of Joel and Ellie (the good and the bad sides of both characters.

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    • Gear3ful wrote:
      Winterlotus90 wrote:
      I agree with you about the interpretation of the ending. Neil's interpretation doesn't make 100% sense...

      And i am now quite sure that Neil Druckmann meant that Ellie would "leave Joel" in a way that she has to make her own decision from now on.

      Just one thing: I think that there is more between Joel and Ellie than just respect. The do love eachother. Maybe not as father and daughter but at least as people that each of them can rely on. Winterlotus90: Do you think that Ellie and Joel love eachother or do you think that they just respect eachother?

      I think Joel feels ready to take on being a father to Ellie and he's beginning to love her. He cares about her a great deal obviously, but love? I'm not sure they're quite there yet. And Ellie, I'm not sure. I think she respects him more than anything else. I don't think she sees Joel as a fatherly figure just yet and she may not be fully aware that he cares about her LIKE a daughter.

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    • Asatorr wrote:
      Winterlotus90 wrote:
      I know Neil is the the creative director for this game, but to assume that Ellie's final "Okay." was filled with hate towards Joel and she suddenly doesn't trust him anymore? That's so.. weak to say, lol. How could ANYONE infer that? Most people didn't. So.. if that's what the audience was SUPPOSED to receive from that talk between Joel and Ellie in the end, then like I said, they did a horrible job of getting that across to people in my opinion. And that's why I don't think that's what the ending was supposed to tell us. I'm really confused as to how Neil could say that. But he wasn't the only one working on the game, and perhaps that's merely HIS interpretation of the game. But to say that's how the ending was SUPPOSED to be interpreted? That really doesn't make sense, since the ending is supposed to be ambiguous.
      It really isn't that difficult to interpret that way. Neil's interpretation is the one I agree with, and the one that I believe to be the most honest. 

      There is no interpretation that one is SUPPOSED to believe. Thats why it's ambiguous and open to interpretation. The fact that most people didn't get Neil's interpretation from the ending means nothing. The problem I have is that I see a lot of people acting as if Neil's interpretation is somehow wrong. It isn't. People are just so set in their interpretation and wanting a happily ever after ending that they can't possibly see anything else. It's a tragic story with a tragic, but very human, ending. 

      Stop thinking about it from Joel's perspective, or Marlene's, or the from your perspective as a player. You have to think about it from Ellie's. That's the only way you'll see Neil's interpretation. Read my first post in the thread if you want my reasoning behind the interpreation (I'm WC 24.57.145.242).

      I think you're being slightly defensive Asatorr, let's remain civil in this discussion.

      Neil's interpretation is pretty "out there." Like I said, to assume Ellie's final "Okay" was filled with hatred toward Joel and that she can't trust him? That totally came out of left field in my opinion. It's not consistent with the story and how we came to know Joel and Ellie. I'm glad you agree with Neil, but so what? That's not my interpretation and I'm entitled to my own. Thanks.

      I'm not necessarily saying Neil's interpretation is wrong, it's just.. WAY out there in my opinion. Maybe I want a happy ending. I can see it turning out how Neil described, but that's honestly not what I walked away from the game feeling. Even the actress that played Ellie, Ashley Johnson, has the same interpretation that I (and many others) have, so. No one interpretation is right, like you said. So, you really shouldn't tell me that my opinion is wrong either and that I'm "set in my ways and can't see it from other perspectives" LOL.

      Believe me, I've thought about this game from every perspective. And if you've read anything else I've posted about this game then you'll know I have a lot to say about Ellie's feelings. Ellie's confession explains a LOT. Ellie knows that a lot went down at the hospital. She didn't even question Joel about it.. almost as if Ellie didn't want to know what happened exactly. She didn't even care to know if Marlene was there. Ellie didn't care about saving the world. She cared about ridding herself of the guilt. And Joel consoled her in the end and told her "you find something to live for" because he knows exactly what it's like to live with survivor's guilt. And in Ellie, Joel sees a new adventure.. a new motivation for life. And he was explaining to Ellie that she will find something to live for too.. maybe it's a family-type relationship and safety with him - a real family, not Marlene. In that moment, Ellie was confessing that the only reason she cared about the vaccine so much was because she felt guilty for living. And Ellie, no doubt, had a feeling Joel was lying about the whole thing. But IN MYYYYY OPINION (emphasis illustrated in the capilization), her final "okay" was her accepting Joel's lie (whether she was sure he was lying or doubtful) and took it as his way of ridding her of the guilt. Like, she knew he was trying to make himself responsible for the guilt she felt. She died want to die.. and Joel's lie made her feel better, even though she had a feeling he was lying, but she accepted it anyway. Joel's lie was her ticket out of the guilt she was feeling. Ellie trusts Joel a lot. And that final "okay" was her trusting him. If she was SO upset with Joel about it, she would have said something immediately because Ellie is like that. She even confronted Joel right away when he lied to her at the farmhouse. I think she knew he was lying. That's why she made him swear. Then when he lied again, she paused for a moment before saying "okay." That pause was her realizing why he kept up his lie a second time. It was because he was taking the blame for the situation. He was taking the weight off of her shoulders. And she said "okay."

      I don't see you post that often, so that is MY interpretation of the ending. I couldn't find yours. I'd be interested in seeing it. Please post it to my wall if you want to share. 

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    • Winterlotus90 wrote:
       

      I really liked the last post of yours :)

      The only thing that i slighty disagree with is that you say that Ellie doesn't love Joel...           Ellie has gone through so much just in order to save Joel. And i don't think that she would have gone through so much if she didn't love Joel. Maybe (as you said) not as a father but as a person who she really cares about. Ellie has probably never cared about anyone more than about Joel.

      I think that (and it's just my opinion) Ellie does love Joel, and that she feels more for him than just respect (otherwise she wouldn't have had a huge problem with Joel giving Ellie to Tommy).   Well, i am getting quite offtopic here so I'll maybe ask you about your opinions on your wall.

      Ps: I won't be able to reply to anything for a few days.

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    • Winterlotus90 wrote:
      95.247.97.44 wrote:
      Oh also here's an early interview with Neil, Bruce and Ashley: http://www.edge-online.com/features/the-last-of-us-the-definitive-postmortem-spoilers-be-damned/ 

      (in particular, the last two questions in the first page)

      As someone already said in this thread, it seems that even Ashley basically disagrees with Neil XD

      Does this article talk about her disagreement with Neil? Or are you just saying she disagrees with Neil because her interpretation is different?

      ...snip...

      Hmm... not sure if I understand your question... However, that article talks about TLOU in general... But as you have read, one question regards Ashley's interpretation of the ending. She doesn't say explicitly that she disagrees with Neil, but clearly her feelings were different from his.

      On a side note, I think that Joel loves Ellie like a second daughter (and not as a replacement of Sarah), while Ellie loves him but doesn't see him as a father yet. I can see her accepting Joel as such (ignoring the author's interpretation of course XD) but that will take a longer time than just one year.

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    • Gear3ful wrote:
      Winterlotus90 wrote:
       
      I really liked the last post of yours :)

      The only thing that i slighty disagree with is that you say that Ellie doesn't love Joel...           Ellie has gone through so much just in order to save Joel. And i don't think that she would have gone through so much if she didn't love Joel. Maybe (as you said) not as a father but as a person who she really cares about. Ellie has probably never cared about anyone more than about Joel.

      I think that (and it's just my opinion) Ellie does love Joel, and that she feels more for him than just respect (otherwise she wouldn't have had a huge problem with Joel giving Ellie to Tommy).   Well, i am getting quite offtopic here so I'll maybe ask you about your opinions on your wall.

      Ps: I won't be able to reply to anything for a few days.

      I think what I meant to say (sorry for the confusion) is that they don't love each other the same way. Joel loves her like a daughter and Ellie loves Joel like a close friend - not like a father. 

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    • Excuse me for off topic. I just saw Ellie's page said her birthday is April 11th, 2018 or 2019. Where did someone get that information from?

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    • It's probably in the comic book. 

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    • It might come from the note that Ellie has from her mom, Anna.

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    • Ellie born in April?!?

      btw If you looking in the forth american dreams you se for the first time Ellie with T-shirt :) thats awesome :D 

      she didnt born something near to the summer?

      If you looking on Mom note you see a hand with blood on the paper what is want to tell us?

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    • Winterlotus90 wrote:
      Asatorr wrote:
      Winterlotus90 wrote:
      I know Neil is the the creative director for this game, but to assume that Ellie's final "Okay." was filled with hate towards Joel and she suddenly doesn't trust him anymore? That's so.. weak to say, lol. How could ANYONE infer that? Most people didn't. So.. if that's what the audience was SUPPOSED to receive from that talk between Joel and Ellie in the end, then like I said, they did a horrible job of getting that across to people in my opinion. And that's why I don't think that's what the ending was supposed to tell us. I'm really confused as to how Neil could say that. But he wasn't the only one working on the game, and perhaps that's merely HIS interpretation of the game. But to say that's how the ending was SUPPOSED to be interpreted? That really doesn't make sense, since the ending is supposed to be ambiguous.
      It really isn't that difficult to interpret that way. Neil's interpretation is the one I agree with, and the one that I believe to be the most honest. 

      There is no interpretation that one is SUPPOSED to believe. Thats why it's ambiguous and open to interpretation. The fact that most people didn't get Neil's interpretation from the ending means nothing. The problem I have is that I see a lot of people acting as if Neil's interpretation is somehow wrong. It isn't. People are just so set in their interpretation and wanting a happily ever after ending that they can't possibly see anything else. It's a tragic story with a tragic, but very human, ending. 

      Stop thinking about it from Joel's perspective, or Marlene's, or the from your perspective as a player. You have to think about it from Ellie's. That's the only way you'll see Neil's interpretation. Read my first post in the thread if you want my reasoning behind the interpreation (I'm WC 24.57.145.242).

      I think you're being slightly defensive Asatorr, let's remain civil in this discussion.

      Neil's interpretation is pretty "out there." Like I said, to assume Ellie's final "Okay" was filled with hatred toward Joel and that she can't trust him? That totally came out of left field in my opinion. It's not consistent with the story and how we came to know Joel and Ellie. I'm glad you agree with Neil, but so what? That's not my interpretation and I'm entitled to my own. Thanks.

      I'm not necessarily saying Neil's interpretation is wrong, it's just.. WAY out there in my opinion. Maybe I want a happy ending. I can see it turning out how Neil described, but that's honestly not what I walked away from the game feeling. Even the actress that played Ellie, Ashley Johnson, has the same interpretation that I (and many others) have, so. No one interpretation is right, like you said. So, you really shouldn't tell me that my opinion is wrong either and that I'm "set in my ways and can't see it from other perspectives" LOL.

      Believe me, I've thought about this game from every perspective. And if you've read anything else I've posted about this game then you'll know I have a lot to say about Ellie's feelings. Ellie's confession explains a LOT. Ellie knows that a lot went down at the hospital. She didn't even question Joel about it.. almost as if Ellie didn't want to know what happened exactly. She didn't even care to know if Marlene was there. Ellie didn't care about saving the world. She cared about ridding herself of the guilt. And Joel consoled her in the end and told her "you find something to live for" because he knows exactly what it's like to live with survivor's guilt. And in Ellie, Joel sees a new adventure.. a new motivation for life. And he was explaining to Ellie that she will find something to live for too.. maybe it's a family-type relationship and safety with him - a real family, not Marlene. In that moment, Ellie was confessing that the only reason she cared about the vaccine so much was because she felt guilty for living. And Ellie, no doubt, had a feeling Joel was lying about the whole thing. But IN MYYYYY OPINION (emphasis illustrated in the capilization), her final "okay" was her accepting Joel's lie (whether she was sure he was lying or doubtful) and took it as his way of ridding her of the guilt. Like, she knew he was trying to make himself responsible for the guilt she felt. She died want to die.. and Joel's lie made her feel better, even though she had a feeling he was lying, but she accepted it anyway. Joel's lie was her ticket out of the guilt she was feeling. Ellie trusts Joel a lot. And that final "okay" was her trusting him. If she was SO upset with Joel about it, she would have said something immediately because Ellie is like that. She even confronted Joel right away when he lied to her at the farmhouse. I think she knew he was lying. That's why she made him swear. Then when he lied again, she paused for a moment before saying "okay." That pause was her realizing why he kept up his lie a second time. It was because he was taking the blame for the situation. He was taking the weight off of her shoulders. And she said "okay."

      I don't see you post that often, so that is MY interpretation of the ending. I couldn't find yours. I'd be interested in seeing it. Please post it to my wall if you want to share. 



      Fantastic post, I pretty much have the exact same interpretation on the ending as you.

      I totally respect Neil Druckmann’s interpretation but there are holes in his theory. As WinterLotus Stated, why would she just simply say ‘ok’ when she clearly knew he was lying, she would call him a bullshitter like she did before. She also states she wants Joel to teach her how to swim JUST BEFORE the hospital scene. That doesn’t sound like someone who would want to die and leave Joel. That is the kind of activity a father would teach a daughter, so that tells me she viewed him as a sort of father figure as she was the one who suggested it in the first place. Funny how marline never taught her how to swim yet she asks Joel to after only one year of knowing him… Sounds pretty father daughter to me but hey, just my opinion of course. She also stated Marline is 'Just a friend I guess'.

      I’m defiantly not saying Ellie didn’t want to be treated like an equal to Joel, but that’s what teenagers want even in today’s world. As the story unfolds it felt to me she started to understand Joel more and realised that the world they lived in really was dark, brutal and ugly and saw the true nature of mankind when all hope is stripped away.

      Also people seem to think Ellie is emotionally stronger then Joel but I disagree with that to an extent. The poor guy has his precious daughter who he has brought up on HIS OWN brutally shot then bleeds out in his arms. You can’t even comprehend what that would feel like unless you have children yourself. But despite all of that he still manages to survive and look after his brother through the outbreak and beyond. To me that takes an ENORMOUS amount of mental strength. Most people would just give up and die. Not saying that he has more mental strength then Ellie but the guy has been through more stuff then her and for longer time. Not to mention he has to constantly deal with the memories of the old world he once lived in. She does not.

      To me the ‘ok’ was exactly how WinterLotus describes which makes perfect sense to me so no need to explain there.

      If Neil Druckmann’s interpretation is what we are ‘meant’ to think then it really takes the whole point of relationship between Joel and Ellie away and there journey really was a waste of time. To be frank, I (all of us) have invested several hours of gameplay into these characters and I personally would feel quite let down if this is the case as a sequel would most likely be based on his interpretation.  

      I just can’t see Neil’s version of the ending having much logic. Sure she might be disappointed in Joel for lying but she hates him!? Man, what a depressing view of the ending that is. Surly she can understand why he did it and not ‘hate’ him, hence the ‘ok’ from her?

      Maybe it’s that Neil stated his interpretation so they have room to create a sequel with Ellie as the main character. Pretty simple when you think about it, though personally I don’t really know if I would want to see Joel and Ellie again in a sequel (only as cameo maybe) after hearing Neil interpretation. It would kind of feel weird her hating him and would dilute the original story. Maybe some new charicters would be nice, only time will tell.

      I don’t know, maybe I’m just kidding myself and want a happier ending, but at the same time the facts are there to support WinterLotus’s interpretation.

      I am an avid PC gamer and actually brought a PS3 for this masterpiece, such a MINBLOWING story and characters. It was well worth it I can say, I actually cannot wait for the DLC it's going to be amazing.

      P.S hope my post wasn’t too long and shitty lol!

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    • Some other relevant quotes from the article (and Mikey's quote at the bottom): “There are all these walls he’s put around himself to try to protect his emotional state. He’s willing to put all those down and put himself at risk because it’s worth it. It’s worth it to put himself at risk to have that love of your kid, even though you might have to deal with something horrible happening. He’s even willing to put his soul on the line, damning the rest of man kind in exchange for this girl’s life. What happens here with this lie and this emphasis on the lie, is that this has taken his journey to the end of the line,” said Druckmann.

      “Ellie starts off clinging to parental figures thinking she needs someone much stronger than her to survive in this world. It starts of with Malrene and quickly shifts to Joel as they start off this journey. She wants to be like Joel; she looks up to him and she kind of wants to win his respect… When Ellie’s talking to Sam, she talks about how her greatest fear, more than anything, is ending up alone. But as the story develops, we find out she’s quite capable and in fact she’s been capable this whole time. At times she stands up to Joel and forces him to respect her as an equal…

      “Then we come to that ending and that lie and that okay and what does that okay mean? It’s definitely not a complacent ‘yea I’ll go along with you’, in fact, it’s the opposite. It’s Ellie waking up for the first time, waking up and realizing she can’t rely on him anymore. While she loves him for what he’s done for her, she hates him for robbing her of that choice. She knows that she has to leave him and make her own decisions and mistakes.”

      I honestly don't really see why what Neil said above would rile so many people up. I seem to be hearing a lot of "well, otherwise the journey is a waste of tiiiiime!" That's basically ignoring the immense character development that went on. I mean, I get it, you've played a game for 12 hours and you want a happy ending, and to know these two are gonna live happily ever after. But did it ever really seem like this was that kind of story? I mean, it's a terribly bleak game, so a complicated, kind of uncomfortable ending fits. Sometimes, in real life, you can sacrifice so much for a person you love and they still leave you. Loving someone isn't all that's needed to sustain a healthy relationship. Things don't always turn out the way you intend them to.

      Neil is very much looking at the ending from Ellie's point of view, which makes sense, given we play as her during that epilogue. She's grown and learned so much from her journey with Joel in order to realize that she doesn't have to rely on someone else to protect her all the time. And Neil doesn't say that Ellie hates Joel (in fact, he says that she loves him for what he's done for her), he says she hates that he robbed her of that choice. Which seems really reasonable to me. As far as she knows, they never even reached the fireflies at all and Joel just threw her in the back of the car and headed to Tommy's. I mean, she's only known him for a year, it's not like he's her Dad that she grew up with and knows really well. They obviously have a bond, but it's not necessarily stable enough to withstand all of that.

      And really, Neil knows these characters better than anyone. He created them. It's kind of impossible for him to be blatantly wrong in anything he said.

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    • Again, I think it's matter of perception.
      From your posts, it seems that you felt distant from Joel during the game, so your interpretation of the ending is similar to Neil's.
      And that's ok! I mean, the fact isn't that your interpretation doesn't make sense, it does.
      But it's not how everyone felt about it. We (many people?) had a different perception of the story, that's why we found difficult to accept that "f*** off" interpretation.

      It doesn't look honest to us.
      It's not that we want an happy ending at all costs (even within my interpretation, I never considered that ending an happy one), we just don't see all pieces coming together with that interpretation. And that's fine as well.
      As I suspected, even Neil somewhat agrees with that (I did my best to transcribe the following speech, but obviously there are many errors):

      (from http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Le6qIz7MjSk, starts at 01:04:15)
      "I was even reflecting [?] about whether talk about my interpretation of that ending because people have such different interpretations and I say it's my interpretation because that isn't necessarely *THE* ending... if you have a different interpretation.. uhm... that works with the facts that are in the story and that's valent [?] ...

      this is just the way .. this was the original intention but that doesn't mean...
      Intention is nothing. It's whatever you kind of make out of the story that matters.

      thanks
      yeah"

      I kinda agree on this one. :)

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    • Winterlotus90 wrote:
      Asatorr wrote:
      Winterlotus90 wrote:
      I know Neil is the the creative director for this game, but to assume that Ellie's final "Okay." was filled with hate towards Joel and she suddenly doesn't trust him anymore? That's so.. weak to say, lol. How could ANYONE infer that? Most people didn't. So.. if that's what the audience was SUPPOSED to receive from that talk between Joel and Ellie in the end, then like I said, they did a horrible job of getting that across to people in my opinion. And that's why I don't think that's what the ending was supposed to tell us. I'm really confused as to how Neil could say that. But he wasn't the only one working on the game, and perhaps that's merely HIS interpretation of the game. But to say that's how the ending was SUPPOSED to be interpreted? That really doesn't make sense, since the ending is supposed to be ambiguous.
      It really isn't that difficult to interpret that way. Neil's interpretation is the one I agree with, and the one that I believe to be the most honest. 

      There is no interpretation that one is SUPPOSED to believe. Thats why it's ambiguous and open to interpretation. The fact that most people didn't get Neil's interpretation from the ending means nothing. The problem I have is that I see a lot of people acting as if Neil's interpretation is somehow wrong. It isn't. People are just so set in their interpretation and wanting a happily ever after ending that they can't possibly see anything else. It's a tragic story with a tragic, but very human, ending. 

      Stop thinking about it from Joel's perspective, or Marlene's, or the from your perspective as a player. You have to think about it from Ellie's. That's the only way you'll see Neil's interpretation. Read my first post in the thread if you want my reasoning behind the interpreation (I'm WC 24.57.145.242).

      I think you're being slightly defensive Asatorr, let's remain civil in this discussion.

      Neil's interpretation is pretty "out there." Like I said, to assume Ellie's final "Okay" was filled with hatred toward Joel and that she can't trust him? That totally came out of left field in my opinion. It's not consistent with the story and how we came to know Joel and Ellie. I'm glad you agree with Neil, but so what? That's not my interpretation and I'm entitled to my own. Thanks.

      I'm not necessarily saying Neil's interpretation is wrong, it's just.. WAY out there in my opinion. Maybe I want a happy ending. I can see it turning out how Neil described, but that's honestly not what I walked away from the game feeling. Even the actress that played Ellie, Ashley Johnson, has the same interpretation that I (and many others) have, so. No one interpretation is right, like you said. So, you really shouldn't tell me that my opinion is wrong either and that I'm "set in my ways and can't see it from other perspectives" LOL.

      Believe me, I've thought about this game from every perspective. And if you've read anything else I've posted about this game then you'll know I have a lot to say about Ellie's feelings. Ellie's confession explains a LOT. Ellie knows that a lot went down at the hospital. She didn't even question Joel about it.. almost as if Ellie didn't want to know what happened exactly. She didn't even care to know if Marlene was there. Ellie didn't care about saving the world. She cared about ridding herself of the guilt. And Joel consoled her in the end and told her "you find something to live for" because he knows exactly what it's like to live with survivor's guilt. And in Ellie, Joel sees a new adventure.. a new motivation for life. And he was explaining to Ellie that she will find something to live for too.. maybe it's a family-type relationship and safety with him - a real family, not Marlene. In that moment, Ellie was confessing that the only reason she cared about the vaccine so much was because she felt guilty for living. And Ellie, no doubt, had a feeling Joel was lying about the whole thing. But IN MYYYYY OPINION (emphasis illustrated in the capilization), her final "okay" was her accepting Joel's lie (whether she was sure he was lying or doubtful) and took it as his way of ridding her of the guilt. Like, she knew he was trying to make himself responsible for the guilt she felt. She died want to die.. and Joel's lie made her feel better, even though she had a feeling he was lying, but she accepted it anyway. Joel's lie was her ticket out of the guilt she was feeling. Ellie trusts Joel a lot. And that final "okay" was her trusting him. If she was SO upset with Joel about it, she would have said something immediately because Ellie is like that. She even confronted Joel right away when he lied to her at the farmhouse. I think she knew he was lying. That's why she made him swear. Then when he lied again, she paused for a moment before saying "okay." That pause was her realizing why he kept up his lie a second time. It was because he was taking the blame for the situation. He was taking the weight off of her shoulders. And she said "okay."

      I don't see you post that often, so that is MY interpretation of the ending. I couldn't find yours. I'd be interested in seeing it. Please post it to my wall if you want to share. 

      I don't really think I was being defensive. Actually, if anyone is being defensive, it's you. I said nothing about your opinion being wrong. I have seen many people claim that Neil's interpretation is wrong, which is why I said what I said. You're free to interpret the story and the ending how ever you want, I just don't see it how you do. Neil said it himself, "intention is nothing. It's whatever you make of the story that matters." 

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    • MayonnEgg wrote:

      I honestly don't really see why what Neil said above would rile so many people up. I seem to be hearing a lot of "well, otherwise the journey is a waste of tiiiiime!" That's basically ignoring the immense character development that went on. I mean, I get it, you've played a game for 12 hours and you want a happy ending, and to know these two are gonna live happily ever after. But did it ever really seem like this was that kind of story? I mean, it's a terribly bleak game, so a complicated, kind of uncomfortable ending fits. Sometimes, in real life, you can sacrifice so much for a person you love and they still leave you. Loving someone isn't all that's needed to sustain a healthy relationship. Things don't always turn out the way you intend them to.

      Neil is very much looking at the ending from Ellie's point of view, which makes sense, given we play as her during that epilogue. She's grown and learned so much from her journey with Joel in order to realize that she doesn't have to rely on someone else to protect her all the time. And Neil doesn't say that Ellie hates Joel (in fact, he says that she loves him for what he's done for her), he says she hates that he robbed her of that choice. Which seems really reasonable to me. As far as she knows, they never even reached the fireflies at all and Joel just threw her in the back of the car and headed to Tommy's. I mean, she's only known him for a year, it's not like he's her Dad that she grew up with and knows really well. They obviously have a bond, but it's not necessarily stable enough to withstand all of that.

      And really, Neil knows these characters better than anyone. He created them. It's kind of impossible for him to be blatantly wrong in anything he said.

      This is awesome. Agree 100% with what you said. 

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    • LightFractal wrote:
      ...........

      This isn't about my interpretation. The ending is very ambiguous, so it's natural that people would interpret it in many different ways. That's fine. But you're not entitled to have that interpretation confirmed by the creator of the game. Saying that what Neil said "doesn't feel honest" or that the "pieces don't come together" is just kind of arrogant. He literally constructed this story from scratch around these two characters, so any "evidence" you bring up that he's wrong is stuff he put in the game on purpose. Everything in the game was leading up to that choice and therefore the ending. Of course he left that final "okay" ambiguous on purpose, as your video said. But now that the game has been out for a while (and long avoiding answering that question) Neil finally comes out and says "this is what this character that *I wrote* was thinking in this moment." You can still interpret the game however you want, people interpret stories differently from their authors all the time (a famous example being Moby Dick,) and obviously Neil doesn't mind that. But no, there's nothing wrong or dishonest about what Neil said, since he literally created this story and these characters. I dunno, but when I hear something from an artist/author about their work that I hadn't considered, I don't call them wrong about their own work, I use it as a learning experience to help me better understand the work...

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    • MayonnEgg wrote:
      Some other relevant quotes from the article (and Mikey's quote at the bottom): “There are all these walls he’s put around himself to try to protect his emotional state. He’s willing to put all those down and put himself at risk because it’s worth it. It’s worth it to put himself at risk to have that love of your kid, even though you might have to deal with something horrible happening. He’s even willing to put his soul on the line, damning the rest of man kind in exchange for this girl’s life. What happens here with this lie and this emphasis on the lie, is that this has taken his journey to the end of the line,” said Druckmann.

      “Ellie starts off clinging to parental figures thinking she needs someone much stronger than her to survive in this world. It starts of with Malrene and quickly shifts to Joel as they start off this journey. She wants to be like Joel; she looks up to him and she kind of wants to win his respect… When Ellie’s talking to Sam, she talks about how her greatest fear, more than anything, is ending up alone. But as the story develops, we find out she’s quite capable and in fact she’s been capable this whole time. At times she stands up to Joel and forces him to respect her as an equal…

      “Then we come to that ending and that lie and that okay and what does that okay mean? It’s definitely not a complacent ‘yea I’ll go along with you’, in fact, it’s the opposite. It’s Ellie waking up for the first time, waking up and realizing she can’t rely on him anymore. While she loves him for what he’s done for her, she hates him for robbing her of that choice. She knows that she has to leave him and make her own decisions and mistakes.”

      I honestly don't really see why what Neil said above would rile so many people up. I seem to be hearing a lot of "well, otherwise the journey is a waste of tiiiiime!" That's basically ignoring the immense character development that went on. I mean, I get it, you've played a game for 12 hours and you want a happy ending, and to know these two are gonna live happily ever after. But did it ever really seem like this was that kind of story? I mean, it's a terribly bleak game, so a complicated, kind of uncomfortable ending fits. Sometimes, in real life, you can sacrifice so much for a person you love and they still leave you. Loving someone isn't all that's needed to sustain a healthy relationship. Things don't always turn out the way you intend them to.

      Neil is very much looking at the ending from Ellie's point of view, which makes sense, given we play as her during that epilogue. She's grown and learned so much from her journey with Joel in order to realize that she doesn't have to rely on someone else to protect her all the time. And Neil doesn't say that Ellie hates Joel (in fact, he says that she loves him for what he's done for her), he says she hates that he robbed her of that choice. Which seems really reasonable to me. As far as she knows, they never even reached the fireflies at all and Joel just threw her in the back of the car and headed to Tommy's. I mean, she's only known him for a year, it's not like he's her Dad that she grew up with and knows really well. They obviously have a bond, but it's not necessarily stable enough to withstand all of that.

      And really, Neil knows these characters better than anyone. He created them. It's kind of impossible for him to be blatantly wrong in anything he said.

      Ugh, the ending is definitely confusing right? lol. I kind of wish I just knew what the creative team wanted us to take away from it, whether it's supposed to be a sad ending or a semi-okay ending. It's a sad that we don't really know what Ellie's final "Okay." meant.. It's killing me! lol.. It's like they take us on this journey where we can't make interactive decisions and then of all things they leave us with an open ending.. :( 

      I agree with everything MayonnEgg said.. I really do. And I can understand the ending that Asatorr and Neil and others envisioned, but for some reason I didn't walk away from the game with that ending in mind.. maybe it's my optimism? I really don't know. I don't know, I guess I got riled up because it just seemed like an ending that was taken out of context? But I can see how the ending was a subtle way of Ellie just being like "Okay.. I know what kind of person Joel is now and I'm disappointed by what he did." And I've thought about like.. what if I was in Ellie's shoes. If I was ridden with that much guilt I would feel terrible that I wasn't given the choice too. I would be mad at both Marlene and Joel for not talking with me first and wanting to decide my fate for me.. Like, knowing I worked hard for something and then it all be for nothing. And especially knowing someone I care and love is lying to me about it. That actually wouldn't make me feel better at all.. But at the same time I would be looking for anything to get rid of my guilt. For Ellie it was waiting to die with Riley (or just die in general), then she discovered she was immune and could help others (which probably prevented her from killing herself at some point), and now that that fell through.. she's still waiting for her turn or at least to make a difference. I think Ellie either wanted the ability to die along with everyone else, or she at least wanted to make the world a better place and be a positive impact and that's what she was trying to do with her immunity. And she felt lost once she realized she couldn't die like normal people could and she felt lost once the immunity thing fell through.. and she confesses to Joel that she feels bad and doesn't know what to do now. She's still waiting for her turn to die or to at least use her immunity to the world's advantage. But there's significance in what Joel tells her, that you find something to fight for. Buuuut then Ellie doesn't want to hear it.. she just wants the truth. Joel lies again. And Ellie says, "Okay." It wasn't a happy "Okay" it wasn't an angry "Okay.." I don't know.. It's very hard to tell what she could be thinking. When Ellie said "Swear to me that everything you said is true" she didn't really.. sound mad. She just sounded REALLY desperate like the guilt was just eating at her. I just thought I'd say that. 

      Maybe after Joel lies to her a second time Ellie pauses and thinks that what happened at the hospital was intense enough that it's making him lie. So she knows something serious went down and maybe she just sees it as another journey is in store for them, a less lethal one for her. Like maybe she's thinking "well I feel shitty but the opportunity passed and now I have to find another way to help. I was obviously going to die at the hospital, something serious went down. And I don't necessarily want to die. So maybe what Joel did was for the best. Because I still have a chance to make a difference.. Because I'm still alive." So maybe Ellie takes it as that they just have to press on and find another way to help the world with her immunity. So maybe her final "okay" was "Okay. I know you're lying Joel. You have your reasons and I will trust that it wasn't the best decision to see the Fireflies since you're lying to me about it. And you said that you keep finding something to fight for.. Well, I will continue to fight to help the world. That will be my purpose. So I will accept this set-back for now. And we just have to press on and find a better way of helping the world." That type of ending would be a good set up for a sequel. Because then it means another journey is in store for the both of them. I mean, after all, Joel did tell Marlene "you keep telling yourself that bullshit" when she said Ellie's death was the ONLY way. So that could have been foreshadowing. :O

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    • Winterlotus90, you're absolutely not wrong in your interpretation. I really love your interpretation, and how Joel relieves Ellies survivor's guilt in it! It's very well thought out and really logical. And I think that Neil would like it too. I meant more that, when you're making a game, even when you're gonna leave an ending as ambigous as in TLOU, you have to actually have something specific in mind when writing that scene. Basically, Neil is the only guy on earth who really knew what Ellie was thinking in that moment, because he had to write it (and then left it ambiguous to the viewer.) So, it's not like we could have ever known that for sure without him telling us. I mean, thats what makes literary analysis so fun, there are so many lenses you can use to interpret something, and nobody is really wrong. 

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    • MayonnEgg wrote:
      Saying that what Neil said "doesn't feel honest" or that the "pieces don't come together" is just kind of arrogant.


      You have to think about those statements in relation to the player's feelings. When I or someone else says that "it doesn't feel honest/doesn't add up" it's because that interpretation clashes with the experience we had with the game. It's something strictly personal, and not a critique in the absolute sense.

      MayonnEgg wrote:
      But you're not entitled to have that interpretation confirmed by the creator of the game.


      That means nothing. Neil's interpretation is not inherently wrong. But also not inherently correct, no matter if he wrote the whole thing. It's just a way to see the story. The precise moment when an author decides to be ambiguous about storytelling, he/she also chooses voluntarily to give up its "authority" about the meaning. It's up to the player to figure that out.

      MayonnEgg wrote:
      But now that the game has been out for a while (and long avoiding answering that question) Neil finally comes out and says "this is what this character that *I wrote* was thinking in this moment.


      He obviously avoided to give his interpretation because he wanted to see how the audience was going to react, and I think it's quite understandable. But it's not like the players had to guess its interpretation and then, BOOM, here's mine and suddenly whoever thought otherwise is wrong. Precisely because this game is open up to interpretation. We can't talk about "the most unbiased view" or similar.

      MayonnEgg wrote:
      I dunno, but when I hear something from an artist/author about their work that I hadn't considered, I don't call them wrong about their own work, I use it as a learning experience to help me better understand the work


      There's little to understand besides "that's how the author interprets his own work".

      MayonnEgg wrote:
      I mean, thats what makes literary analysis so fun, there are so many lenses you can use to interpret something, and nobody is really wrong.


      Yeah, I agree on this, it's the reason I posted here in the first place. :)

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    • Winterlotus90:

      I really like your interpretation. I agree with you

      Maybe Ellie isn't just sad because Joel lied to her. I guess that she is also sad that she isn't the answer to all of the world's problems anymore...  What do you think?

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    • See! Like a ton of people know where I'm coming from! Even Ashley Johnson believes the same thing that I was saying. And I agree with MayonnEgg that Neil's interpretation should help us look at the work differently but I also don't tell people, like.. if I were to create art, I wouldn't scold them for walking away from it with a different interpretation. I wouldn't even tell them that they're wrong. I know Neil wasn't doing either, but I feel like he's saying he's right and anything else is essentially wrong because that's not how he wrote it, "but good try though! However that's not what Ellie was actually saying." But he made it ambiguous! So, regardless, it still makes me feel like my interpretation is wrong hearing straight from the creator's mouth that he wrote the scene with an entirely differently ending in mind. :( bleh. Like I still feel wrong.. idk. And that's why I got riled up too was because if Neil wanted his audience to walk away with more of that ending, then maybe he should have filled in the gaps where people like me and Ashley Johnson wouldn't walk away thinking that the ending was potentially a happy one/something else. I mean yes it's quite silly to say Neil, the own creator, is wrong when he wrote the game and all that. I was just like "wow o_O I did NOT see that coming." lol. 

      Either there's a very black and white way to way to think about something, or there could be gray areas. EVEN THOUGH Neil created the ending with his interpretation in mind, I agree with LightFractal that he made the ending ambiguous for a reason. He didn't give us a ton of black and white answers. Ellie's final "Okay." was definitely a gray area. Part of me still fricken believes that Ellie believed his lie! LOL. Like I either believe she accepted his lie or that she fell for it. But anyway.. I didn't mean to sound arrogant MayonnEgg by saying that the piece didn't come together, because I can see that they do. I can see more than one ending for sure. I guess I just took Neil's comments as, like I said, "Well I wrote it this way. And that's what you should have thought, but nice try on those other theories! But you're essentially wrong still, since that's not how I wrote it." 

      Okay, the thing we're all debating (or whatever) over is whether Ellie is upset or grateful for Joel taking away her choice at the vaccine, right? There's no denying that Ellie is going to be upset one way or another. Even in my interpretation, Ellie is upset that her plan fell through. And she would have to come to terms with the advice that Joel gave her and realize that he did it to save her. Now is it worth completely losing trust in him and leaving him? Who knows. I personally don't see that happening, but Neil does. That's more of what Neil was saying, was that she will eventually leave Joel. Another gray area comes from the question, would Ellie have still wanted to go through with the vaccine had she known that she was going to die for it? I think, no. But Neil probably thinks yes. Well, okay let me revise. I think Ellie would go through with it knowing she would die, but that's where Joel's fatherly advice and love comes from, to tell her that the deaths of her friends isn't her debt to repay and basically tells her, "hey, the vaccine fell through, but you always find something to keep fighting for.. we'll try again, kiddo. Don't worry." Because I think Joel believes she wants to live. And I think she does too.

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    • I also think that she wants to live. But i am also quite sure that if she had known that she had to die for a vaccine, she would have done it anyway. Because she would have felt obligated to do it, not because she would have wanted it (i think she didn't)-

      So what i am trying to say is that Ellie wouldn't have wanted to die for a vaccine, but i think that she would have sacrificed herself in that case...

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    • Ellie herself didn't exactly want to live. In my opinion, at least. On the way to the hospital, Joel told her "Maybe after this I can teach you how to play guitar," or, "Maybe I'll teach you how to sing," or something like that. And Ellie responds, "Yeah," all nonchalantly like she's sucked out of it and knows it's a one way trip. This world isn't one you want to live in, plus sacrificing one life for millions? Repopulation the earth? If things went back to the way they were off of a vaccination from Ellie's brain, she'd be known as a hero, or a Messiah, or the Chosen One or something. That's why she seemed hesitant and in disbelief when Joel told her that there were others that were immune, just like her.

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    • Err, not "didn't want to live". More like "wasn't completely against sacrificing her life for something".

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    • 67.176.246.202 wrote:
      Ellie herself didn't exactly want to live. In my opinion, at least. On the way to the hospital, Joel told her "Maybe after this I can teach you how to play guitar," or, "Maybe I'll teach you how to sing," or something like that. And Ellie responds, "Yeah," all nonchalantly like she's sucked out of it and knows it's a one way trip. This world isn't one you want to live in, plus sacrificing one life for millions? Repopulation the earth? If things went back to the way they were off of a vaccination from Ellie's brain, she'd be known as a hero, or a Messiah, or the Chosen One or something. That's why she seemed hesitant and in disbelief when Joel told her that there were others that were immune, just like her.

      Yeah that's true too.. When Ellie was very distant at the beginning of Summer I knew it was partially because of what happened with David but part of me couldn't help but feel like she had a feeling that her time was coming to an end. Or maybe she was just thinking about her friends dying and she was feeling guilty? Something was obviously preoccupying her mind. Yeah Ellie didn't believe Joel's lie.. 

      Okay. I can see the ending going down like this:

      Ellie asks what happened, and Joel lies to her. She doesn't completely believe him. Then after they make it to Tommy's she tells Joel to swear to her that he's telling the truth. This could have been Ellie's way of saying "Joel I know you're lying, and I'm giving you a second chance to be honest with me." And once again Joel lied. So I can see how Ellie took that as "oh wow.. he's lying to me. How can I trust him if he won't come clean about this? I might have to leave and go figure this out on my own." BUT THEN WHY didn't Ellie call him out on it like she has before? Because she DOES trust him for what he did back at the hospital and accepted his lie? What do you guys think??

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    • Winterlotus90 wrote:
      67.176.246.202 wrote
      Yeah that's true too.. When Ellie was very distant at the beginning of Summer I knew it was partially because of what happened with David but part of me couldn't help but feel like she had a feeling that her time was coming to an end. Or maybe she was just thinking about her friends dying and she was feeling guilty? Something was obviously preoccupying her mind. Yeah Ellie didn't believe Joel's lie.. 

      Okay. I can see the ending going down like this:

      Ellie asks what happened, and Joel lies to her. She doesn't completely believe him. Then after they make it to Tommy's she tells Joel to swear to her that he's telling the truth. This could have been Ellie's way of saying "Joel I know you're lying, and I'm giving you a second chance to be honest with me." And once again Joel lied. So I can see how Ellie took that as "oh wow.. he's lying to me. How can I trust him if he won't come clean about this? I might have to leave and go figure this out on my own." BUT THEN WHY didn't Ellie call him out on it like she has before? Because she DOES trust him for what he did back at the hospital and accepted his lie? What do you guys think??

      I think Ellie didn't call out Joel on it because she thinks it would be pointless. Ellie knows what Joel did, and she knows that he lied to her about it even when she asked him. That's all she needs. She doesn't need to call him out on his bullshit because at that point, what would it do? She knows she will never get the truth from him and he has no intention of telling her.  

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    • Asatorr wrote:
      Winterlotus90 wrote:
      67.176.246.202 wrote
      Yeah that's true too.. When Ellie was very distant at the beginning of Summer I knew it was partially because of what happened with David but part of me couldn't help but feel like she had a feeling that her time was coming to an end. Or maybe she was just thinking about her friends dying and she was feeling guilty? Something was obviously preoccupying her mind. Yeah Ellie didn't believe Joel's lie.. 

      Okay. I can see the ending going down like this:

      Ellie asks what happened, and Joel lies to her. She doesn't completely believe him. Then after they make it to Tommy's she tells Joel to swear to her that he's telling the truth. This could have been Ellie's way of saying "Joel I know you're lying, and I'm giving you a second chance to be honest with me." And once again Joel lied. So I can see how Ellie took that as "oh wow.. he's lying to me. How can I trust him if he won't come clean about this? I might have to leave and go figure this out on my own." BUT THEN WHY didn't Ellie call him out on it like she has before? Because she DOES trust him for what he did back at the hospital and accepted his lie? What do you guys think??

      I think Ellie didn't call out Joel on it because she thinks it would be pointless. Ellie knows what Joel did, and she knows that he lied to her about it even when she asked him. That's all she needs. She doesn't need to call him out on his bullshit because at that point, what would it do? She knows she will never get the truth from him and he has no intention of telling her.  

      Well she called Joel out on his bullshit BEFORE so why didn't she do it this time?

      If she knew he was lying then why did she bother to ask him a second time? Remember, Joel lied twice. There wouldn't have been any point to her saying "Swear to me that everything you said is the truth" if she wasn't sure. Why didn't she just say, "Joel I know you're lying, and I'm leaving. I can't trust you."? She said "Swear to me that everything you said is the truth" because she's not sure if he's lying. Otherwise she wouldn't have said that. Unless that was her way of saying like "I know you're lying and I'm giving you a second chance to fess up." and then he didn't. I don't know. 

      Joel really just should have told Ellie the truth.. because then he could properly help her with her suvivor's guilt. I mean we've already established that she didn't really care about the vaccine to necessarily save the world; she did it more out of guilt for her situation. Regardless, that's her decision if she wanted to die for it, I know. But once Joel knew her reasons for wanting to do the vaccine, he understood that she was going through what he's been going through for 20 years. And he reassured her that it gets easier. And that they have each other.

      I mean, if Ellie didn't believe him the first time, why did she confess to him that she felt guilty for her friends? Like, why would you confess your motives for doing something to someone you know could potentially stop you from going through with them? That's why this WHOLE TIME Ellie didn't tell Joel because she probably figured he would have stopped her from going on this dangerous journey (especially after the whole giraffe scene). Like if Ellie had confessed at the giraffe scene, Joel would have said the same thing at the end. He would have said "your friends' deaths aren't on you.. come on, let's go home." But she didn't tell him and they pressed on.

      I think Ellie believed Joel the first time he lied actually, or was confused at least. I think she confessed thinking that, "well.. the vaccine fell through so I should just tell Joel why I wanted to do it all along." Or maybe it was her way of being like.. "I know he's lying, I should tell him the real reason why I wanted to do the vaccine and maybe that will make him fess up." and then when he lied again, she knew for certain he was keeping it a secret. But the latter would be pointless right? Because whether he fesses up or not, she already knows he lied (after the first time he lied). You said that yourself, Asatorr, that it would be pointless to get the truth out of him. So in my opinion I think she fessed up for the first reason. I think she believed Joel (or was confused) the first time he lied, and fessed up to just explain to Joel the real reason why she wanted to do the vaccine all along. That was her way of reaching out for help. 

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    • Asatorr wrote:
      I think Ellie didn't call out Joel on it because she thinks it would be pointless. Ellie knows what Joel did, and she knows that he lied to her about it even when she asked him. That's all she needs. She doesn't need to call him out on his bullshit because at that point, what would it do? She knows she will never get the truth from him and he has no intention of telling her.  


      But why she doesn't asked him: "Why are you lying to me?" Plain and simple.

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    • Winterlotus90 wrote:
      Asatorr wrote:
      Winterlotus90 wrote:
      67.176.246.202 wrote:
      Well she called Joel out on his bullshit BEFORE so why didn't she do it this time?

      If she knew he was lying then why did she bother to ask him a second time? Remember, Joel lied twice. There wouldn't have been any point to her saying "Swear to me that everything you said is the truth" if she wasn't sure. Why didn't she just say, "Joel I know you're lying, and I'm leaving. I can't trust you."? She said "Swear to me that everything you said is the truth" because she's not sure if he's lying. Otherwise she wouldn't have said that. Unless that was her way of saying like "I know you're lying and I'm giving you a second chance to fess up." and then he didn't. I don't know. 

      Joel really just should have told Ellie the truth.. because then he could properly help her with her suvivor's guilt. I mean we've already established that she didn't really care about the vaccine to necessarily save the world; she did it more out of guilt for her situation. Regardless, that's her decision if she wanted to die for it, I know. But once Joel knew her reasons for wanting to do the vaccine, he understood that she was going through what he's been going through for 20 years. And he reassured her that it gets easier. And that they have each other.

      I mean, if Ellie didn't believe him the first time, why did she confess to him that she felt guilty for her friends? Like, why would you confess your motives for doing something to someone you know could potentially stop you from going through with them? That's why this WHOLE TIME Ellie didn't tell Joel because she probably figured he would have stopped her from going on this dangerous journey (especially after the whole giraffe scene). Like if Ellie had confessed at the giraffe scene, Joel would have said the same thing at the end. He would have said "your friends' deaths aren't on you.. come on, let's go home." But she didn't tell him and they pressed on.

      I think Ellie believed Joel the first time he lied actually, or was confused at least. I think she confessed thinking that, "well.. the vaccine fell through so I should just tell Joel why I wanted to do it all along." Or maybe it was her way of being like.. "I know he's lying, I should tell him the real reason why I wanted to do the vaccine and maybe that will make him fess up." and then when he lied again, she knew for certain he was keeping it a secret. But the latter would be pointless right? Because whether he fesses up or not, she already knows he lied (after the first time he lied). You said that yourself, Asatorr, that it would be pointless to get the truth out of him. So in my opinion I think she fessed up for the first reason. I think she believed Joel (or was confused) the first time he lied, and fessed up to just explain to Joel the real reason why she wanted to do the vaccine all along. That was her way of reaching out for help. 

      I always thought of Ellie telling Joel about her survivors guilt as a way to try to get him to understand. She thought he would fess up, like you said. It's Ellie giving Joel one more chance, and when he wasn't honest with her, that was it. No reason to discuss it any further, she knows Joel will lie to her and she needs to stop relying on him. She needs to be independent. 

      Don't over think it too much. Not everything needs to be analyzed. 

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    • Asatorr wrote:
      Winterlotus90 wrote:
      Asatorr wrote:
      Winterlotus90 wrote:
      67.176.246.202 wrote:
      Well she called Joel out on his bullshit BEFORE so why didn't she do it this time?

      If she knew he was lying then why did she bother to ask him a second time? Remember, Joel lied twice. There wouldn't have been any point to her saying "Swear to me that everything you said is the truth" if she wasn't sure. Why didn't she just say, "Joel I know you're lying, and I'm leaving. I can't trust you."? She said "Swear to me that everything you said is the truth" because she's not sure if he's lying. Otherwise she wouldn't have said that. Unless that was her way of saying like "I know you're lying and I'm giving you a second chance to fess up." and then he didn't. I don't know. 

      Joel really just should have told Ellie the truth.. because then he could properly help her with her suvivor's guilt. I mean we've already established that she didn't really care about the vaccine to necessarily save the world; she did it more out of guilt for her situation. Regardless, that's her decision if she wanted to die for it, I know. But once Joel knew her reasons for wanting to do the vaccine, he understood that she was going through what he's been going through for 20 years. And he reassured her that it gets easier. And that they have each other.

      I mean, if Ellie didn't believe him the first time, why did she confess to him that she felt guilty for her friends? Like, why would you confess your motives for doing something to someone you know could potentially stop you from going through with them? That's why this WHOLE TIME Ellie didn't tell Joel because she probably figured he would have stopped her from going on this dangerous journey (especially after the whole giraffe scene). Like if Ellie had confessed at the giraffe scene, Joel would have said the same thing at the end. He would have said "your friends' deaths aren't on you.. come on, let's go home." But she didn't tell him and they pressed on.

      I think Ellie believed Joel the first time he lied actually, or was confused at least. I think she confessed thinking that, "well.. the vaccine fell through so I should just tell Joel why I wanted to do it all along." Or maybe it was her way of being like.. "I know he's lying, I should tell him the real reason why I wanted to do the vaccine and maybe that will make him fess up." and then when he lied again, she knew for certain he was keeping it a secret. But the latter would be pointless right? Because whether he fesses up or not, she already knows he lied (after the first time he lied). You said that yourself, Asatorr, that it would be pointless to get the truth out of him. So in my opinion I think she fessed up for the first reason. I think she believed Joel (or was confused) the first time he lied, and fessed up to just explain to Joel the real reason why she wanted to do the vaccine all along. That was her way of reaching out for help. 

      I always thought of Ellie telling Joel about her survivors guilt as a way to try to get him to understand. She thought he would fess up, like you said. It's Ellie giving Joel one more chance, and when he wasn't honest with her, that was it. No reason to discuss it any further, she knows Joel will lie to her and she needs to stop relying on him. She needs to be independent. 

      Don't over think it too much. Not everything needs to be analyzed. 

      I was gunna say that too lol, but make it more wordy, haha.. hey over analyzing is fun :P 

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    • Maybe Neil Druckmann is reading this topic right now and he's like "LOL" ..

      or he is one of the users who posted here... who knows :P

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    • LightFractal wrote:
      Maybe Neil Druckmann is reading this topic right now and he's like "LOL" ..

      or he is one of the users who posted here... who knows :P

      Yeah Neil probably posed this thread. LOL Neil is RifleEyez!! :O

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    • posted**

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    • I read everyone comments and they are very really good.:) I wonder what Troy Baker's and Nolan North's interpertatons of the ending.:)

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    • ^ really good*

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    • Winterlotus90:

      I find myself giving kudos to every third comment that you make :)

      I think that Ellie didn't believe Joel. Because she would have wondered about her clothes...       And i also think that Ellie can still rely on Joel. She just knows that she can't trust Joel with everything. She can't trust him with the things that would effect Ellie in a bad way.

      For example (this is just made up in my head), if Ellie would be in a dangerous situation and she would probably die. She probably would make Joel swear not to try to save her (because he would probably die). But he would do it anyway, even if it meant his death...

      Or if the Fireflies would follow them, Joel would have tried to stop them. I guess Ellie wouldn't let him go, even if she knew what Joel had done. In this case, Ellie would probably try to find the Fireflies, but Joel would stop her (again, even if it meant his death)

      I know this is just my imagination, but i still think that Ellie can trust Joel with everything, except the things that pose a threat to Ellie.

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    • Maybe something like week\month after the Ending Ellie will pry on Joels backpack and she will read and listen all the things he have like marlene recorders and she will know something doesnt right and she dont need to know the truth after all she need to say big thanks to the world she survived.... and the only way she can know the truth is to ask Joel(but we know he will not tell her) even if she will return to hospital she will find dead bodies so she will understand what happend and where marlene 

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    • There were still some living Fireflies at the hospital. So they would have done something with the bodies. And i don't think that Ellie would return to Salt Lake City to find out what happened...     

      Before thta, she would tell Joel that she knows that he lied. And after that i guess that she would have tried to create a vaccine. (I don't think that she cares about who would have the vaccine).

      So what i am trying to say is that there may be a possibility that if Ellie finds out that a vaccine could be created, she would maybe try to find a doctor who could make it. Even if she would die...

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    • Hey Sahar40021, I agree with you about Ellie will pry in Joel's stuffs to find out the truth.:) Joel might make an recorder for himself explaining why he killed Marlene and the fireflies and what Ellie means to him.:)

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    • Sahar40021 wrote:
      Maybe something like week\month after the Ending Ellie will pry on Joels backpack and she will read and listen all the things he have like marlene recorders and she will know something doesnt right and she dont need to know the truth after all she need to say big thanks to the world she survived.... and the only way she can know the truth is to ask Joel(but we know he will not tell her) even if she will return to hospital she will find dead bodies so she will understand what happend and where marlene 

      Yeah like I can see Ellie finding out later on that Joel lied to her, and being upset about it. But in that final moment of the game, in my opinion, I think she wasn't sure whether he lied or not, and just accepted his answer. Even though she was doubtful of it. But I don't think she was 100% sure he was lying. Neil and Asatorr disagree, but that's fine. :P

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    • Winterlotus90 wrote:
      ....in my opinion, I think she wasn't sure whether he lied or not, and just accepted his answer. Even though she was doubtful of it. But I don't think she was 100% sure he was lying. Neil and Asatorr disagree, but that's fine. :P

      Yeah, Neil himself has made a big deal time and time again that he wants people to interpret the ending as they will, and he held off from giving any opinions on the ending for this reason. I'm sure he just finally was all "well, this is what I was thinking when I had to write that scene..." because he'd probably been asked that question by every interviewer for months on end haha. So he was all "ENOUGH." I also like the theory that Neil is RifleEyez haha.

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    • Asatorr wrote:
      Winterlotus90 wrote:
      Asatorr wrote:
      Winterlotus90 wrote:
      67.176.246.202 wrote:
      Well she called Joel out on his bullshit BEFORE so why didn't she do it this time?

      If she knew he was lying then why did she bother to ask him a second time? Remember, Joel lied twice. There wouldn't have been any point to her saying "Swear to me that everything you said is the truth" if she wasn't sure. Why didn't she just say, "Joel I know you're lying, and I'm leaving. I can't trust you."? She said "Swear to me that everything you said is the truth" because she's not sure if he's lying. Otherwise she wouldn't have said that. Unless that was her way of saying like "I know you're lying and I'm giving you a second chance to fess up." and then he didn't. I don't know. 

      Joel really just should have told Ellie the truth.. because then he could properly help her with her suvivor's guilt. I mean we've already established that she didn't really care about the vaccine to necessarily save the world; she did it more out of guilt for her situation. Regardless, that's her decision if she wanted to die for it, I know. But once Joel knew her reasons for wanting to do the vaccine, he understood that she was going through what he's been going through for 20 years. And he reassured her that it gets easier. And that they have each other.

      I mean, if Ellie didn't believe him the first time, why did she confess to him that she felt guilty for her friends? Like, why would you confess your motives for doing something to someone you know could potentially stop you from going through with them? That's why this WHOLE TIME Ellie didn't tell Joel because she probably figured he would have stopped her from going on this dangerous journey (especially after the whole giraffe scene). Like if Ellie had confessed at the giraffe scene, Joel would have said the same thing at the end. He would have said "your friends' deaths aren't on you.. come on, let's go home." But she didn't tell him and they pressed on.

      I think Ellie believed Joel the first time he lied actually, or was confused at least. I think she confessed thinking that, "well.. the vaccine fell through so I should just tell Joel why I wanted to do it all along." Or maybe it was her way of being like.. "I know he's lying, I should tell him the real reason why I wanted to do the vaccine and maybe that will make him fess up." and then when he lied again, she knew for certain he was keeping it a secret. But the latter would be pointless right? Because whether he fesses up or not, she already knows he lied (after the first time he lied). You said that yourself, Asatorr, that it would be pointless to get the truth out of him. So in my opinion I think she fessed up for the first reason. I think she believed Joel (or was confused) the first time he lied, and fessed up to just explain to Joel the real reason why she wanted to do the vaccine all along. That was her way of reaching out for help. 

      I always thought of Ellie telling Joel about her survivors guilt as a way to try to get him to understand. She thought he would fess up, like you said. It's Ellie giving Joel one more chance, and when he wasn't honest with her, that was it. No reason to discuss it any further, she knows Joel will lie to her and she needs to stop relying on him. She needs to be independent. 

      Don't over think it too much. Not everything needs to be analyzed. 

      Plus, a good debater or lawyer will try to debunk anything you throw at them ;) Not that I am either.. but I'd say I'm good at nit-picking details that I think are relevant :P 

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    • MayonnEgg wrote:
      Winterlotus90 wrote:
      ....in my opinion, I think she wasn't sure whether he lied or not, and just accepted his answer. Even though she was doubtful of it. But I don't think she was 100% sure he was lying. Neil and Asatorr disagree, but that's fine. :P
      Yeah, Neil himself has made a big deal time and time again that he wants people to interpret the ending as they will, and he held off from giving any opinions on the ending for this reason. I'm sure he just finally was all "well, this is what I was thinking when I had to write that scene..." because he'd probably been asked that question by every interviewer for months on end haha. So he was all "ENOUGH." I also like the theory that Neil is RifleEyez haha.

      Exactly. I bet it was bugging a ton of people, including the people working on the game, to have the ending so open. So he probably gave people closure on it by just answering them with the intention he had in mind when writing it. 

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    • idk, like someone can paint a picture of rain fall. And depending on how the person viewing the art feels about rain, they can take the painting as being dreary and depressing, or uplifting, happy, and maybe even romantic. So, the ending of TLOU is supposed to be ambiguous like that, and Neil "painting the picture" saw it one way as he was making it, but it's open enough to be interpretted other ways. I felt like writing this was obvious, and we've established it, but I wanted to compare it to a painting. I know a happier ending doesn't seem to fit with the theme of the game. But there are happyish or at least touching moments in the game. I have no doubt that Ellie will at some point find out the truth and be really upset, and she may or may not leave Joel once she finds out. But I just felt like in that ending moment, it was more hopeful (at least temporarily until Ellie finds out the truth) than how Neil envisioned. I just feel like what Neil said was more of.. like in the future of Joel and Ellie, not right in that moment. I don't doubt that what Neil said could happen, just at face value, I didn't take Ellie's final "Okay." to be filled with hatred toward Joel or even implying that she was going to leave. That's all. 

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    • I also wanted to mention I wasn't trying to argue with Asatorr, it was more of a debate :P which I know can turn quickly into an argument, lol.. but yea I just wanted to give him details to think about :P Like I feel like Ellie's confession is so pivotal. I feel like it's partially the climax to the story. Because we know Ellie's true motives at that moment and it proves that Joel and Ellie really need each other. I took Ellie's confession as more of a way to reach out for help because she's been sad and feeling guilty about it for so long. That's why it was tough at first for her to spit out. Either because it was depressing to just say it or maybe embarrassing. Asatorr said he took Ellie's confession as a way of making Joel understand why the vaccine was so important to her. And I can see that too. She just seemed so persistent about having Joel tell her the truth, like she was confused and not truly sure what to believe and not that she was certain he was lying.

      We have to remember too that this is Joel's story: he's the main character, not Ellie. I say that because in Joel's story, everything seems to work out in the end being that he has Ellie now and it's hard to imagine her leaving him because that would make her the main character of TLOU2 if a sequel should be made. But what I'm saying is this is Joel's story and an ending that favors Ellie doesn't seem like a well-rounded conclusion to me, idk. I'm having trouble explaining it. lol

      I also find a lot of significance in the way Joel nervously tells Ellie the lie in the car vs. when he reiterates his lie in the end. In the car, he was nervous and guilty. After Ellie's confession, he was stern and confident, like he knew he was lying for the right reason - the right reason being to protect Ellie. And also when Ellie asked Joel to swear to her, it wasn't an argumentative or accusatory "swear to me;" it was a very sad, and desperate one.. Like a plea for help. That's how I interpretted it. I don't know, that ending scene is just so touching to me, almost as much as when Joel embraces and console's Ellie after David almost trying to take advantage of her. 

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    • The ending did work out quite good for Joel. But he still lost Tess. And now that Joel finally starts to deal with the things that happened, i think it could take him quite a while to get through all the pain that he has experienced over the years.

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    • Winterlotus90 wrote:

      We have to remember too that this is Joel's story: he's the main character, not Ellie. I say that because in Joel's story, everything seems to work out in the end being that he has Ellie now and it's hard to imagine her leaving him because that would make her the main character of TLOU2 if a sequel should be made. But what I'm saying is this is Joel's story and an ending that favors Ellie doesn't seem like a well-rounded conclusion to me, idk. I'm having trouble explaining it. lol

      Saying that this is Joel's story is very debatable. It's a dual protagonist game. It's about Joel and Ellie equally. It's about their relationship, not about one person.  Yes, you do play as Joel for the majority of the game, but the last person you play as is Ellie and the final shot is of her. To say it's about Joel is unfair. 

      IF this was in fact just Joels story, it still doesn't mean that Ellie couldn't be the main character of a sequel. Protagonists can change. Ellie is absolutely vital to the story.It wouldn't surprise me at all if Ellie was the main playable character in sequel.

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    • what are you think Joel & Ellie do after Ellie says in the ending:"ok" ?

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    • Asatorr wrote:
       

      While Ellie is a huge part of the story, it is not her story. Otherwise we would have known more about her past and so on. I agree with Winterlotus90. I think that ot is Joel's story. But that does in no way mean that a sequel couldn't be about Ellie...

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    • Asatorr wrote:
      Winterlotus90 wrote:

      We have to remember too that this is Joel's story: he's the main character, not Ellie. I say that because in Joel's story, everything seems to work out in the end being that he has Ellie now and it's hard to imagine her leaving him because that would make her the main character of TLOU2 if a sequel should be made. But what I'm saying is this is Joel's story and an ending that favors Ellie doesn't seem like a well-rounded conclusion to me, idk. I'm having trouble explaining it. lol

      Saying that this is Joel's story is very debatable. It's a dual protagonist game. It's about Joel and Ellie equally. It's about their relationship, not about one person.  Yes, you do play as Joel for the majority of the game, but the last person you play as is Ellie and the final shot is of her. To say it's about Joel is unfair. 

      IF this was in fact just Joels story, it still doesn't mean that Ellie couldn't be the main character of a sequel. Protagonists can change. Ellie is absolutely vital to the story.It wouldn't surprise me at all if Ellie was the making playable character in sequel.

      I absolutely disagree with this. I desperately wanted this to become Ellie's game, but it never did. You play as her for a fraction of a chapter. Out of what, 13? You're playing as Joel for 95% of the game. As a result, you basically perceive Ellie through his lens. Like at the end, we feel like we're Joel carrying Ellie down that hallway. There are large chunks of the game, such as the prologue, when you're separated in the hotel, and the *climax* of the game, where she isn't even there (or is unconscious.) The prologue establishes Joel as a character, gets us to understand his pain and who he is/becomes, but does Ellie get anything near this level of exposition? No. She so neatly completes Joel's story arc, but does he do the same for her? His story comes full-circle in the end when he scoops her up and carries her out of that hospital. What is Ellie's story arc, even? Is it even clearly presented? Do we even understand Ellie as a character in the profound way that we understand Joel, and his pain? Not really. We play as Ellie in that final chapter to force us to think about what *we* just did in the hospital and how it affects Ellie, because we probably didn't even think about it when we were doing it. 

      Ellie is certainly integral to the story, but no, this is most definately Joel's story. She's secondary. She's a very important and well-developed secondary character, but not a protagonist. She plays second fiddle to Joel in basically every aspect of the story. 

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    • MayonnEgg wrote:
      Asatorr wrote:
      Winterlotus90 wrote:
      I absolutely disagree with this. I desperately wanted this to become Ellie's game, but it never did. You play as her for a fraction of a chapter. Out of what, 13? You're playing as Joel for 95% of the game. As a result, you basically perceive Ellie through his lens. Like at the end, we feel like we're Joel carrying Ellie down that hallway. There are large chunks of the game, such as the prologue, when you're separated in the hotel, and the *climax* of the game, where she isn't even there (or is unconscious.) The prologue establishes Joel as a character, gets us to understand his pain and who he is/becomes, but does Ellie get anything near this level of exposition? No. She so neatly completes Joel's story arc, but does he do the same for her? His story comes full-circle in the end when he scoops her up and carries her out of that hospital. What is Ellie's story arc, even? Is it even clearly presented? Do we even understand Ellie as a character in the profound way that we understand Joel, and his pain? Not really. We play as Ellie in that final chapter to force us to think about what *we* just did in the hospital and how it affects Ellie, because we probably didn't even think about it when we were doing it. 

      Ellie is certainly integral to the story, but no, this is most definately Joel's story. She's secondary. She's a very important and well-developed secondary character, but not a protagonist. She plays second fiddle to Joel in basically every aspect of the story. 

      Sure, you play as Joel for 95% of the game, but it's not just a story about Joel. You might only play as Ellie for two chapters in the game, but that doesn't mean she isn't as important as Joel is. Yeah, it is Joel's story, but it's also Ellie's. 

      The last shot is of Ellie, you play as her in the final chapter, she's got a 4 issue comic book series dedicated to her, she's on the boxart in front of Joel. Those might seem like insignifcant thingsthat don't mean anything, but they do.They put Ellie on the front of the boxart in front of Joel for a reason. Naughty Dog wanted you to understand that these two characters are equal, that this isn't just a story about a grizzled man in his late forties. They wanted to get the message across that this 14 year old is just as important. 

      I don't consider Ellie to be the main character or more important than Joel, but I don't really see Joel as the main character or more important than Ellie. It's a dual protagonist game. Neither one is anything without the other. 

      My opinion, obviously. 

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    • I agree 100% with Asatorr on this one :)

      It was never just about one character. 

      Look at this picture for example: http://www.gamereactor.se/magcover/se/103.jpg 

      Doesn't it feel... incomplete?

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    • Asatorr wrote:

      Sure, you play as Joel for 95% of the game, but it's not just a story about Joel. You might only play as Ellie for two chapters in the game, but that doesn't mean she isn't as important as Joel is. Yeah, it is Joel's story, but it's also Ellie's. 

      The last shot is of Ellie, you play as her in the final chapter, she's got a 4 issue comic book series dedicated to her, she's on the boxart in front of Joel. Those might seem like insignifcant thingsthat don't mean anything, but they do.They put Ellie on the front of the boxart in front of Joel for a reason. Naughty Dog wanted you to understand that these two characters are equal, that this isn't just a story about a grizzled man in his late forties. They wanted to get the message across that this 14 year old is just as important. 

      I don't consider Ellie to be the main character or more important than Joel, but I don't really see Joel as the main character or more important than Ellie. It's a dual protagonist game. Neither one is anything without the other. 

      My opinion, obviously. 

      You can't discount the fact that we play as Joel for 95% of the game. Of course the story isn't just about Joel, but the story mainly revolves around him. Who you inhabit in a game tends to result in you funneling everything through that character. During that winter chapter, I was able to connect with Ellie at a much higher level, simply because of the fact that I was now playing as her. As a female gamer, it was an incredible feeling finally be playing as a female character like Ellie, and I was disappointed it was so short-lived. It makes a huge difference.

      Someone can be a secondary character and still have all the qualities you listed. Just because someone is a secondary character doesn't mean that they're unimportant to the story or that no aspect of the story is about them. In an effective story, everyone is important and integral to the story, otherwise they have no reason to be in it in the first place. Ellie is just a really well developed secondary character, something we especially don't see often in games. Saying that isn't insulting Ellie by any means or saying she's not important. She fits the definition of secondary character to a T. 

      Just because we play as her for the 2 minute epilogue doesn't make her a protagonist. The fact that she needs a separate (completely optional) comic series just to explain her own backstory really proves her secondary nature to the story. Apparently it wasn't important enough to put into the game itself, whereas the entire first two chapters of the game are solely focused on telling Joel's complex backstory. Can you imagine this game if they're just left those first two chapters out?

      Being the final shot of the game doesn't make a character a protagonist either. Niether does being in front of Joel on the box art. Neither of those are criteria for a character being considered a protagonist. Not every movie/game ends with a shot of its protagonist, nor has its protagonist even featured on the poster/box art. I find those to be incredibly positive choices, as I think it's refreshing that Ellie was so prominently featured, but that doesn't automatically launch her into protagonist status. 

      I desperately want a game with a great female protagonist like Ellie. TLOU was not that game. It was close, but no cigar. It was a game with a refreshingly well-rounded secondary character (as opposed to companions like Ashley Graham). 

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    • MayonnEgg wrote:
      Asatorr wrote:
      You can't discount the fact that we play as Joel for 95% of the game. Of course the story isn't just about Joel, but the story mainly revolves around him. Who you inhabit in a game tends to result in you funneling everything through that character. During that winter chapter, I was able to connect with Ellie at a much higher level, simply because of the fact that I was now playing as her. As a female gamer, it was an incredible feeling finally be playing as a female character like Ellie, and I was disappointed it was so short-lived. It makes a huge difference.

      Someone can be a secondary character and still have all the qualities you listed. Just because someone is a secondary character doesn't mean that they're unimportant to the story or that no aspect of the story is about them. In an effective story, everyone is important and integral to the story, otherwise they have no reason to be in it in the first place. Ellie is just a really well developed secondary character, something we especially don't see often in games. Saying that isn't insulting Ellie by any means or saying she's not important. She fits the definition of secondary character to a T. 

      Just because we play as her for the 2 minute epilogue doesn't make her a protagonist. The fact that she needs a separate (completely optional) comic series just to explain her own backstory really proves her secondary nature to the story. Apparently it wasn't important enough to put into the game itself, whereas the entire first two chapters of the game are solely focused on telling Joel's complex backstory. Can you imagine this game if they're just left those first two chapters out?

      Being the final shot of the game doesn't make a character a protagonist either. Niether does being in front of Joel on the box art. Neither of those are criteria for a character being considered a protagonist. Not every movie/game ends with a shot of its protagonist, nor has its protagonist even featured on the poster/box art. I find those to be incredibly positive choices, as I think it's refreshing that Ellie was so prominently featured, but that doesn't automatically launch her into protagonist status. 

      I desperately want a game with a great female protagonist like Ellie. TLOU was not that game. It was close, but no cigar. It was a game with a refreshingly well-rounded secondary character (as opposed to companions like Ashley Graham). 

      I understand that those things do not make someone a protagonist (although Druckmann does say that's why she's on the front of the boxart), I just have a hard time seeing this as just Joels story, or that he is even the main character. Even before the game was released, I have always seen this as a dual protagonist story. It's always been about their relationship, and has never been just about one person. Ellie has always been just as important as Joel and it's always been her story just as much as it is Joel's. I know I'm repeating myself here, but I don't really have anything else to say or any other way of explaining it. 

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    • Asatorr wrote:

      I understand that those things do not make someone a protagonist (although Druckmann does say that's why she's on the front of the boxart), I just have a hard time seeing this as just Joels story, or that he is even the main character. Even before the game was released, I have always seen this as a dual protagonist story. It's always been about their relationship, and has never been just about one person. Ellie has always been just as important as Joel and it's always been her story just as much as it is Joel's. I know I'm repeating myself here, but I don't really have anything else to say or any other way of explaining it. 

      I was never arguing that this was only Joel's story, in the sense that Ellie didn't have a strong arc or anything, but that this is mainly his story. Thus, he is the main character. Maybe I should ask you what you mean by "Ellie has always been just as important as Joel."  How are you defining "important" here? By her role in the story? By her amount of screentime? I'd really like to see your logic here in how you came to that conclusion. From my perspective, it's hard to argue that two characters are equally important when one is unplayable for a majority of the game, is not even introduced until 3 hours into the game, is not present during multiple chunks of the story including the climax (whereas Joel is virtually always present), and is given comparatively little backstory (in the game.)

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    • If Ellie starred in TLOU2 wouldn't that be more of like a spin-off rather than a sequel because the main protagonist is no longer in it (that being Joel)? Sorry for getting off topic for a moment.

      That's why I figured the ending would have favored Joel and would have come full circle for Joel, at least in that final moment of the game, because the game is essentially about him. So that's another reason why I thought Ellie's "Ok." wasn't full of disappointment for Joel but was more like, Joel got the ending he wanted - which either means Ellie fell for the lie completely, or had a feeling he was lying and sort of just accepted it. Maybe that's why I had trouble understanding Neil's perspective on the ending at first, because the game is centered around Joel and his decisions and then SUDDENLY in the end it focused on Ellie and her feelings and it just confused the heck out of me! Like the focus completely switched and it made it seem like Joel wasn't the main character anymore. Like, something wasn't consistent about Neil's interpretation of the ending with how the story developed and unfolded for Joel, and that's probably why I was/am confused a little on his interpretation. 

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    • OH! And something else I remembered. Just before Ellie says "Ok." she nods a little bit, like it's very subtle.. and I take that as "accepting" body language. Like.. she goes along with his answer. She obviously is confused and unsure of what Joel is telling her, so I don't buy into the theory that she was completely duped into believing his lie. Ellie's smarter than that. Sorry, but all these little hints are interesting. And these body language signs that the creators make the characters have are SO important along with every piece of dialogue they say. So, things we overlook naturally because we're used to body language are purposefully placed in the game for us to notice otherwise they wouldn't have created it.

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    • Winterlotus90 wrote:
      If Ellie starred in TLOU2 wouldn't that be more of like a spin-off rather than a sequel because the main protagonist is no longer in it (that being Joel)? Sorry for getting off topic for a moment.

      That's why I figured the ending would have favored Joel and would have come full circle for Joel, at least in that final moment of the game, because the game is essentially about him. So that's another reason why I thought Ellie's "Ok." wasn't full of disappointment for Joel but was more like, Joel got the ending he wanted - which either means Ellie fell for the lie completely, or had a feeling he was lying and sort of just accepted it...

      Now that I think of it, the reason that we're all even debating Ellie's final "okay" is because we still don't fully understand her character and how she thinks. Like, we can deeply understand why Joel does everything he does, because we understand him and his pain at such a profound level. But with Ellie, there's still some mystery there, we don't know her backwards and forwards like Joel, so her final "okay" is left cryptic and ambiguous to us.

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    • MayonnEgg wrote:
      Asatorr wrote:
      I was never arguing that this was only Joel's story, in the sense that Ellie didn't have a strong arc or anything, but that this is mainly his story. Thus, he is the main character. Maybe I should ask you what you mean by "Ellie has always been just as important as Joel."  How are you defining "important" here? By her role in the story? By her amount of screentime? I'd really like to see your logic here in how you came to that conclusion. From my perspective, it's hard to argue that two characters are equally important when one is unplayable for a majority of the game, is not even introduced until 3 hours into the game, is not present during multiple chunks of the story including the climax (whereas Joel is virtually always present), and is given comparatively little backstory (in the game.)


      The focus of the story is on the relationship between Joel and Ellie. It isn't about them overcoming the infected, or the hunters, etc. The conflict is their relationship, that's what they're trying to resolve and overcome. Both Joel *and* Ellie are equally instrumental in overcoming this conflict between them. Both of their arcs are complete at the end. That's what I meant when I said Ellie is just as important as Joel.

      As for Ellie's arc, the reason we might not all understand it the same way we do Joel's, is because her arc is more implicit. Joel's is very clearly communicated to the player and is therefore easier to understand. Ellie's is not. As I said, it's implicit. It might not be as clearly communicated to the player as Joel's is, but it's certainly there. It just requires more effort on the part of the player to interpret it. It's like a puzzle, everything is there,  you just need to put it together. 

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    • ^ The above post is me by the way. Must not have been signed when I posted it. 

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    • I don't see this in the ending at all. I think whats happening in this article is a Director (Druckmann) makes a very successful game, and after the game has been out and he starts to see the dollar signs, starts thinking about a sequel, but his intial idea dosen't make sense with his ending. Everything is this game is so methodically thought out. Every facial expression, every glance conveys the characters emotions perfectly. In the ending after Ellie's story she clearly looks at Joel with a look that tells you that she doesn't beleive him, but she also doesn't know what happened. In my opinion after Joel swears he's told her the truth, she seems to close her eyes as if she doesn't beleive Joel and she's going to question him further, but when she opens her eyes she see's a father, and she decides that regardless of the truth she loves Joel and knows that if he's lieing he's doing it for the best.

      While many things are open to interpretation, and I could understand almost any interpretation of he final expressions, the only thing that makes NO SENSE AT ALL is the ending Druckmann claims he envisioned. The entire game the story line follows 4 distinct arc's, Joel's relationship with Ellie, Ellie's trust in herself, Ellie's trust in Joel, and Joel's progression from bad to good; The whole game Ellie and Joel grow to love each other as father and daughter; Ellie grows more confident in her ability to survive in this world (although she never seems to fully trust herself as she fights like hell to stay by his side the entire game, and in the final chapter still asks Joel if he's sure he'll catch her while jumping to the ducts before jumping to the bus); Ellie grows from questioning Joel's every move to trusting Joel inquestionably, so much so that by the end other the game she stops asking if he's sure in his decisions, he merely instructs and she acts; and Joel follows a path that takes him from killing deadbeats in allies to risking his life several times to save a child. If this was truly Druckmann's intended ending then all four storylines followed a logical progression through 11 chapters of the game only to completely break down in the last minute of the last cutscene.

      If Druckmann truley intended the inding to be interpretted this way, then Ellie doesn't see Joel as a father. How could she? If Joel stripped her all she ever wanted and she detests him for it how can she have the faith and love in him as father? How can she trust in him if she doesn't beleive he's looking out for her best intrests?

      If Druckmann intended for Ellie to loose all faith in Joel then why did we bother growing her trust in Joel through 11 chapters. By the Underground level of the game Ellie trusts Joel explictly. She would do anything he tells her too, including running accross an unstable bus in a flowing river despite the fact that she cant swim. Why would she suddenly, in one sentence, forget everything he did to cause that undying trust in him?

      The greatest, and in my opinion the most insulting, flaw in what Druckmann claims to be his "vision" of the ending", is that for Ellie to (in his words) "hate(s) him for robbing her of that choice" she would have to KNOW WHAT CHOICE HE MADE FOR HER! Does Druckmann truly beleive that we are so dense that we forget the she was unconscious for the entire chapter at the hospital? While she doesn't beleive his version of the events there's no way she could know what actually happened, or that there was a decision to be made. Unless Ellie has psychic abilities not mentioned through the game (although she probably should've seen David coming in that case) or she was merely faking her unconsious state, she is completely in the dark as to what happened at the hospital. I could understand her being leery of Joel's story, but to uneqivically hate him for events that she knows next to nothing about is a rediculous leap.

      The artistic designers of this game, and the cinematic people captured ever scene perfectly. I have a hard time imagining they failed the Creative Director so miserably on such an important portion of the game. Hopfully Druckmann doesn't come out with a bunch downloadable content with the sole intent of making people actually beleive his ludacris claim in order to make a disapointing second game. I would prefer a sequel where they rehash the first game in a different part of the country before they ruin a great game with a sequel featuring a brooding ungreatful Ellie who hates Joel for everything he did for you. The Joel and Ellie relationship made this game, to change that in order to make a half assed sequel would be a tremendious disappointment and would ruin what was otherwise a fantastic story and game.

      (My appologies for my many typo's)

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    • My appologies for not signing the above comment.

      olinered77

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    • 24.57.145.242 wrote:

      The focus of the story is on the relationship between Joel and Ellie. It isn't about them overcoming the infected, or the hunters, etc. The conflict is their relationship, that's what they're trying to resolve and overcome. Both Joel *and* Ellie are equally instrumental in overcoming this conflict between them. Both of their arcs are complete at the end. That's what I meant when I said Ellie is just as important as Joel. As for Ellie's arc, the reason we might not all understand it the same way we do Joel's, is because her arc is more implicit. Joel's is very clearly communicated to the player and is therefore easier to understand. Ellie's is not. As I said, it's implicit. It might not be as clearly communicated to the player as Joel's is, but it's certainly there. It just requires more effort on the part of the player to interpret it. It's like a puzzle, everything is there,  you just need to put it together. 

      Ah, okay, I understand where you're coming from. I guess I'm just disappointed that Ellie is relegated to having the "implicit" arc, considering that ND was trying to call her a protagonist. 

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    • 70.187.79.133 wrote:

      While many things are open to interpretation, and I could understand almost any interpretation of he final expressions, the only thing that makes NO SENSE AT ALL is the ending Druckmann claims he envisioned.... 

      I disagree that Ellie slowly grows to "trusting Joel inquestionably," quite the opposite. I think that their relationship grows more from that to mutual trust and respect. At first, Ellie does just do what Joel tells her. She has an attitude about it, but she does- "just tell me where to go," "lead the way," etc. As the game goes on, however, Joel obviously grows to trust her more and allows her more autonomy (giving her the gun, leaving her on her own more often.) Ellie starts to grow more independent, more capable (esp after the winter chapter.) Notice how you can't run in that epilogue chapter when you're playing as Ellie, preventing you from keeping up with him. An indication that she's growing more distant, in my opinion. I mean, Ellie disregards Joel's orders each time she saves him- when she shoots the hunter and the bus. She wasn't following Joel's orders when she did that, quite the opposite, in fact. Joel told her to run, but she tried to save him of her own free will. Ellie's her own person- she's not Joels slave or anything, haha.

      And it's not a stretch at all that Ellie would have some idea of what Joel is lying about. She's not an idiot. Think about that conversation they had after the giraffes- Joel tells Ellie "you know, we don't have to do this, we can turn back now." And Ellie looks honestly shocked that Joel would suggest that. And she says no, I don't want it to be for nothing. So, at this point she understands that Joel has a profound desire to start a new life with her. Fastforward to the bus incident, and she becomes unconscious. Next thing she knows, she's in the back of a car, with a hospital gown, with "drugs" wearing off, and hears Joel nerviously tell the least believable lie ever, and you don't think she has some kind of idea what went down? She knows that Joel obviously did something terrible, because it's bad enough that he has to lie about it. And she was obviously really invested in being the "cure" because of her survivor's guilt, so she got no real closure (because she knows he's lying) for the entire impetus for their grueling year-long journey. 

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    • So MayonnEgg, do you think Ellie's confession was more of "I know Joel's lying, so I might as well explain to him why this journey was so important to me and maybe then he'll understand and tell me the truth"? Or was it more like, "Well, I guess I wasn't needed for the vaccine.. I still feel terrible and I need someone to know about this guilt I'm feeling, so here it goes.. I'll tell Joel now since the vaccine doesn't matter any more."? 

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    • Winterlotus90 wrote:
      So MayonnEgg, do you think Ellie's confession was more of "I know Joel's lying, so I might as well explain to him why this journey was so important to me and maybe then he'll understand and tell me the truth"? Or was it more like, "Well, I guess I wasn't needed for the vaccine.. I still feel terrible and I need someone to know about this guilt I'm feeling, so here it goes.. I'll tell Joel now since the vaccine doesn't matter any more."? 

      I saw her confession as more like your first explanation- she's trying to get Joel to understand why it's important to her that she get closure. Throughout the game, Ellie tries to talk through a lot of the things that happen to them, but Joel refuses and says to "move on." For instance, when Sam died, and they see the teddy bear on the way to Tommy's dam, and about Sarah. I saw Ellie in that last moment with her confession saying "this is why I won't let you sweep this under the rug again- we need to talk about this." And then, when Joel again lies, I think that the look in her eyes is one of disappointment. Not like "I hate you forever," but that some damage has been done to their relationship. Because she may not know exactly what he did, but I think she knows that it's probably something terrible, considering he has to lie about it, and considering his past and her observations of his own capabilities for brutality. 

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    • MayonnEgg wrote:
      Winterlotus90 wrote:
      So MayonnEgg, do you think Ellie's confession was more of "I know Joel's lying, so I might as well explain to him why this journey was so important to me and maybe then he'll understand and tell me the truth"? Or was it more like, "Well, I guess I wasn't needed for the vaccine.. I still feel terrible and I need someone to know about this guilt I'm feeling, so here it goes.. I'll tell Joel now since the vaccine doesn't matter any more."? 
      I saw her confession as more like your first explanation- she's trying to get Joel to understand why it's important to her that she get closure. Throughout the game, Ellie tries to talk through a lot of the things that happen to them, but Joel refuses and says to "move on." For instance, when Sam died, and they see the teddy bear on the way to Tommy's dam, and about Sarah. I saw Ellie in that last moment with her confession saying "this is why I won't let you sweep this under the rug again- we need to talk about this." And then, when Joel again lies, I think that the look in her eyes is one of disappointment. Not like "I hate you forever," but that some damage has been done to their relationship. Because she may not know exactly what he did, but I think she knows that it's probably something terrible, considering he has to lie about it, and considering his past and her observations of his own capabilities for brutality. 

      Yeah you bring up a good point about how Ellie wanted to talk about her feelings and Joel told her to "move on" time and time again.. So do you think in her final "okay" she was accepting that Joel lied to her but trusted his decision for what he did back at the hospital? Or.. do you think she's already plotting some way to leave Joel and absolutely can't trust him anymore? 

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    • MayonnEgg wrote:
      Winterlotus90 wrote:
      So MayonnEgg, do you think Ellie's confession was more of "I know Joel's lying, so I might as well explain to him why this journey was so important to me and maybe then he'll understand and tell me the truth"? Or was it more like, "Well, I guess I wasn't needed for the vaccine.. I still feel terrible and I need someone to know about this guilt I'm feeling, so here it goes.. I'll tell Joel now since the vaccine doesn't matter any more."? 
      I saw her confession as more like your first explanation- she's trying to get Joel to understand why it's important to her that she get closure. Throughout the game, Ellie tries to talk through a lot of the things that happen to them, but Joel refuses and says to "move on." For instance, when Sam died, and they see the teddy bear on the way to Tommy's dam, and about Sarah. I saw Ellie in that last moment with her confession saying "this is why I won't let you sweep this under the rug again- we need to talk about this." And then, when Joel again lies, I think that the look in her eyes is one of disappointment. Not like "I hate you forever," but that some damage has been done to their relationship. Because she may not know exactly what he did, but I think she knows that it's probably something terrible, considering he has to lie about it, and considering his past and her observations of his own capabilities for brutality. 

      Oh wait, so.. the closure she was looking for from Joel was just for him to tell the truth? Or was just confessing in general her closure? 

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    • 70.187.79.133 wrote:

      (1.) "If this was truly Druckmann's intended ending then all four storylines followed a logical progression through 11 chapters of the game only to completely break down in the last minute of the last cutscene."

      (2.) The greatest, and in my opinion the most insulting, flaw in what Druckmann claims to be his "vision" of the ending", is that for Ellie to (in his words) "hate(s) him for robbing her of that choice" she would have to KNOW WHAT CHOICE HE MADE FOR HER! Does Druckmann truly beleive that we are so dense that we forget the she was unconscious for the entire chapter at the hospital? While she doesn't beleive his version of the events there's no way she could know what actually happened, or that there was a decision to be made. Unless Ellie has psychic abilities not mentioned through the game (although she probably should've seen David coming in that case) or she was merely faking her unconsious state, she is completely in the dark as to what happened at the hospital. I could understand her being leery of Joel's story, but to uneqivically hate him for events that she knows next to nothing about is a ridiculous leap.

      (3.) The artistic designers of this game, and the cinematic people captured every scene perfectly. I have a hard time imagining they failed the Creative Director so miserably on such an important portion of the game. Hopfully Druckmann doesn't come out with a bunch downloadable content with the sole intent of making people actually beleive his ludacrous claim in order to make a disappointing second game. I would prefer a sequel where they rehash the first game in a different part of the country before they ruin a great game with a sequel featuring a brooding ungrateful Ellie who hates Joel for everything he did for you. The Joel and Ellie relationship made this game, to change that in order to make a half assed-sequel would be a tremendious disappointment and would ruin what was otherwise a fantastic story and game.

      You basically hit the nail on the head with everything I had trouble understanding with Druckmann's (sp?) interpretation of the ending. Thanks, lol. Like, I can SEE Druckmann's vision for the ending, but you made a lot of similar points that I was thinking too. Like especially how everything was built up around Joel and Ellie's relationship for it to just come crashing down at the last few minutes of the game. Like it doesn't seem to make sense to me, even though I can see where an ending like Druckmann's could potentially happen, but only if we knew more about Ellie and if Ellie were more of a main character. Because after all, like I said, this is Joel's story. So an ending that completely shuts out and abandons Joel due to his actions on saving Ellie and suddenly favoring Ellie (as selfish as that sounds for Joel) just doesn't make sense to me. 

      And yeah when Druckmann said the part about Ellie being upset for robbing her of that choice sounds odd for the reason you said that Ellie really doesn't know what happened at all. But we all know Ellie is good at detecting lies. And she must have an idea that something bad happened. We know that she knows that Joel wanted to turn around and go back to Tommy's (the giraffe scene) so she must know that whatever happened at the hospital wasn't worth her life and so.. he rescued her and took her back to Tommy's. So when Druckmann said that, it was based off of inferences, so it would make sense for Ellie to think those things. What Druckmann said there wasn't far-fetched. But that's why I kept saying like, if she knew she had to die for the vaccine would she have done it? Ellie doesn't really know everything the vaccine entailed and maybe she wouldn't have wanted to die (as far as Joel assumed). And I don't think it was appropriate to assume that Ellie hated for Joel for something she didn't even bother questioning Joel about. Ellie isn't the type of person to just start hating someone without getting the details first. Ellie didn't want to know what happened. I don't think she wanted to know what happened because it scared her to think that death was an option - a choice that she really didn't want to make but felt like she did at the same time (guilt). She didn't want Joel to tell her that even though she may have had an idea. But yeah she was more focused on the fact that her one-way ticket out of her guilt fell through. The vaccine didn't work out, there's no going back, and she wanted to let Joel know what she was dealing with because her plan didn't work out. So, in my opinion she was reaching out to Joel for help, since she does trust him. Or she at least trusts Joel enough to share her feelings with him. If I was so "hateful" toward someone and angry and disappointed in them, I wouldn't tell them what I was trying to do. I'd be like "psh forget them, I'm leaving. I'm going to find someone else that won't stand in my way." But Ellie didn't want to do that. She was not filled with hate, that was silly of Neil to say, honestly. He over-embellished his interpretation a bit. 

      Yeah an ending like Druckmann's would open up for a sequel, or more like a spin-off, where Ellie tries to commit suicide. Sorry, if that's harsh but Ellie's confession screamed "suicide is an option for me at some point." Unless it's Ellie trying to find the Fireflies to finish what Joel and her started? But again, that's a death sentence. A sequel/spin-off for an ending like Druckmann's doesn't seem fulfilling, lol. 

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    • I also wanted to mention that Ellie really shouldn't be angry at Joel for what he did, or even disappointed in HIM. She can be disappointed that her plans fell through, but she really shouldn't be disappointed in Joel. Because Joel thought she wanted to live, was curious about life, and wanted to do good in the world. She showed signs that she enjoyed life. WHY on Earth would Joel assume that Ellie would be okay with dying, ever? Joel knew that Ellie wanted to help out and make the world a better place, but to DIE? You might say he's selfish, but Joel knew that Ellie didn't want to die (as far as he knew) for the vaccine. He knew it was the right thing to save her because UP UNTIL THE ENDING he knew/thought she wanted to live. But then the ending comes along and she confesses that yeah the whole time she kinda wanted to die or was at least was "waiting for her turn." So, Ellie should have told Joel from the beginnning, "whatever happens.. I want to do WHATEVER it takes to be apart of this vaccine. Even if it means I have to be sacrificed. It means everything to me.. Promise me Joel.. that if the moment comes, you'll let me go. And that you'll understand and be okay with the decision that I choose to leave this world for the greater good. Do you understand?" But he and Ellie never had that conversation. As far as he's concerned he's doing the right thing. He didn't know what Ellie really wanted IF that even is what she wanted. I don't think it was. If someone wants to die for something they have to be pretttttty sound about it. And Ellie was depressed about it and uncomfortable with the idea because she had survivor's guilt. Like, firefighters and police officers don't take the job feeling guilty about life and hope that they die in the line of duty. No, they know there's a chance they could die but they're doing it out of sound mind knowing that they're helping the world become a better place. Ellie's intentions (as evidenced by her survivor's guilt) weren't solely to help the world. But she figured that the vaccine was a better option than waiting for her life to come to an end since she'd be helping the world and that would be a better alternative for redeeming herself. And then once that fell through, she said she was still waiting for her turn. She didn't say anything like "You know what? That's okay that the vaccine fell through. At least there are other people like me that can help the world too!" But nope.. the fate of the world wasn't on her mind. The guilt that she felt was front and center. 

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    • MayonnEgg wrote:
      70.187.79.133 wrote:

      Think about that conversation they had after the giraffes- Joel tells Ellie "you know, we don't have to do this, we can turn back now." And Ellie looks honestly shocked that Joel would suggest that. And she says no, I don't want it to be for nothing. So, at this point she understands that Joel has a profound desire to start a new life with her. 

      I always thought that both of them agreed to start a life together. Like when Joel told Ellie that he was going to teach her how to play the guitar and teache her to swim.                         So it sounds to me like they agreed on living together after the vaccine thing was over.

      I also think that such a suggestion (Ellie and Joel starting a new life together) would have come from Ellie, not from Joel.    What do you think?

      PS: I think i am going to make a thread about what people think about Joel' and Ellie's relationship...

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    • Winterlotus90 wrote:
      She didn't say anything like "You know what? That's okay that the vaccine fell through. At least there are other people like me that can help the world too!" But nope.. the fate of the world wasn't on her mind. The guilt that she felt was front and center. 

      I agree with you.

      But i don't think that Ellie ever believed Joel's lie. And if she would have believed it, there wouldn't have been a chance for a vaccine. Because Joel said that there were many people like her, but the Fireflies still weren't able to make a vaccine.

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    • Winterlotus90 wrote:
      70.187.79.133 wrote:


      (2.) The greatest, and in my opinion the most insulting, flaw in what Druckmann claims to be his "vision" of the ending", is that for Ellie to (in his words) "hate(s) him for robbing her of that choice" she would have to KNOW WHAT CHOICE HE MADE FOR HER! Does Druckmann truly beleive that we are so dense that we forget the she was unconscious for the entire chapter at the hospital? While she doesn't beleive his version of the events there's no way she could know what actually happened, or that there was a decision to be made. Unless Ellie has psychic abilities not mentioned through the game (although she probably should've seen David coming in that case) or she was merely faking her unconsious state, she is completely in the dark as to what happened at the hospital. I could understand her being leery of Joel's story, but to uneqivically hate him for events that she knows next to nothing about is a ridiculous leap.

      And yeah when Druckmann said the part about Ellie being upset for robbing her of that choice sounds odd for the reason you said that Ellie really doesn't know what happened at all. But we all know Ellie is good at detecting lies. And she must have an idea that something bad happened. We know that she knows that Joel wanted to turn around and go back to Tommy's (the giraffe scene) so she must know that whatever happened at the hospital wasn't worth her life and so.. he rescued her and took her back to Tommy's. So when Druckmann said that, it was based off of inferences, so it would make sense for Ellie to think those things. What Druckmann said there wasn't far-fetched. But that's why I kept saying like, if she knew she had to die for the vaccine would she have done it? Ellie doesn't really know everything the vaccine entailed and maybe she wouldn't have wanted to die (as far as Joel assumed). And I don't think it was appropriate to assume that Ellie hated for Joel for something she didn't even bother questioning Joel about. Ellie isn't the type of person to just start hating someone without getting the details first. Ellie didn't want to know what happened. I don't think she wanted to know what happened because it scared her to think that death was an option - a choice that she really didn't want to make but felt like she did at the same time (guilt). She didn't want Joel to tell her that even though she may have had an idea. But yeah she was more focused on the fact that her one-way ticket out of her guilt fell through. The vaccine didn't work out, there's no going back, and she wanted to let Joel know what she was dealing with because her plan didn't work out. So, in my opinion she was reaching out to Joel for help, since she does trust him. Or she at least trusts Joel enough to share her feelings with him. If I was so "hateful" toward someone and angry and disappointed in them, I wouldn't tell them what I was trying to do. I'd be like "psh forget them, I'm leaving. I'm going to find someone else that won't stand in my way." But Ellie didn't want to do that. She was not filled with hate, that was silly of Neil to say, honestly. He over-embellished his interpretation a bit. 

      Doesn't matter if Ellie doesn't know exactly what happened, she's smart enough to be able to figure it out. Even if you think that Ellie goes along with Joel's lie at the end, she still pressures him on it. If she truly had no idea about the events that went down in the hospital, than there would be no reason for her to accuse Joel lying. She knows how Joel feels about her. 

      -She wakes up in the back of a car being driven by Joel. The first thing is she asks is "what the hell am I wearing?" 

      -Joel tells her the drugs are still wearing off, they found the Fireflies, and they've stopped looking for a cure. Ellie is visibly upset at this news. She closes her eyes, sighs, and than turns away. Her body language says everything. 

      -The drive from SLC to Tommy's place is a long one. She's had a lot of time think, and by that point she knows how Joel feels about her, and she can probably figure out that he did something. 

      -She doubts what Joel is telling her and she wants him to be straight with her. No bullshit. So she asks him, gives him one more chance to come clean. And he doesn't.

      She trusted Joel and wanted a father figure, but she also wants Joel to trust her and treat her as a person. She's been honest with Joel, she's opened up to him, and Joel hasn't really done the same.  Ellie doesn't hate Joel completely (Druckmann even says that), she loves him for everything he's done for her, but she wanted to make that decision on her own, and she expected Joel to respect her enough to be honest. 

      It's about Ellie becoming independent. If you listen to the whole thing (you can find it on YouTube), especially when Druckmann talks about his daughter, I think you'll get where he's coming from. He talks about the core truth of the game being the sacrifices that parents make for their children. Everything a parent does is to give their children a future and to leave them with the tools they need to be independent. Eventually, children leave their parents. 

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    • I said that Asatorr, did you not read the part where I was like "Ellie is good at detecting lies"? Just saying. :P

      What's the point of him coming clean if she already knows the truth? Is that going to help the situation? Will that suddenly make Ellie stay with Joel? No. 

      You should post the video because there's a ton of youtube videos out there on The Last of Us. 

      Leaving your parent on a good note is different than leaving on a bad note because they lied to you. Joel didn't really teach Ellie how to be independent at all in my opinion. She already was independent. He did teach her how to trust and rely on someone. 

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    • wow, that's weird, she was unconscious, how come she knows he "robs" her of her choice. Besides, i don't think she would be willing to sacrifice herself for this so called cure

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    • Winterlotus90 wrote:
      I said that Asatorr, did you not read the part where I was like "Ellie is good at detecting lies"? Just saying. :P

      What's the point of him coming clean if she already knows the truth? Is that going to help the situation? Will that suddenly make Ellie stay with Joel? No. 

      You should post the video because there's a ton of youtube videos out there on The Last of Us. 

      Leaving your parent on a good note is different than leaving on a bad note because they lied to you. Joel didn't really teach Ellie how to be independent at all in my opinion. She already was independent. He did teach her how to trust and rely on someone.

      http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ywZaPLkQEj8

      Joel coming clean could prevent Ellie from leaving. She wants him to be honest with her, so that she knows that she can rely on him. The lie, in addition to Joel physically removing her from making a decision that was hers to make, is a huge part of why she can't rely on him anymore. It's not JUST what he did, but it's the fact that he's lying her about it.

      It doesn't have to be leaving on a bad note. People seem to be really focused on Druckmann saying Ellie "hates Joel for robbing her of that choice," and just completely ignoring the first part of that statement: "While she LOVES Joel for what he's done for her." She doesn't hate Joel completely. 

      I don't think about it as a negative. Actually, maybe for Joel it would be (but he thinks Ellie believes the lie. Ignorance is bliss, eh?). But for Ellie, it can be a positive thing. As Druckmann said, Ellie clings go parental figures and thinks she needs someone else (Marlene, Joel). It might not always appear this way, but I think deep down, she thinks she needs someone to rely on. She talks about her fear of being alone to Sam. Again, she thinks she needs someone else.  The key word here is THINKS. She doesn't realize she's capable.

      Winter shows us the exact opposite. It shows us she IS capable. Winter isn't just a pivotal moment in the game because of how their relationship develops, but also because it's the beginning of Ellie realizing she's capable. 

      So yeah, you're right that Joel didn't really teach Ellie how to be independent. She taught herself that. But I disagree that he taught her how to trust and rely on people. If anything, Joel inadvertently taught her that she doesn't need to rely on other people anymore, because it's Joel's lie that makes her fully realize this. It doesn't have to be leaving on a bad note, or even a good note. Ellie is just growing up. 

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    • Winterlotus90 wrote:

      Yeah you bring up a good point about how Ellie wanted to talk about her feelings and Joel told her to "move on" time and time again.. So do you think in her final "okay" she was accepting that Joel lied to her but trusted his decision for what he did back at the hospital? Or.. do you think she's already plotting some way to leave Joel and absolutely can't trust him anymore? 

      I think that she doesn't know enough to "trust his decision." She doesn't know exactly what went down. So I think that she's disappointed and maybe troubled by the fact that Joel is lying to her. I don't think that she's plotting to leave Joel immediately and can't trust him at all, but there has definitely been a breach of trust. I think in that final look from her she's seeing Joel as the deeply flawed human that he is, instead of as this amazing protector/superhero she previously saw him as. Which is really something that all children go through in their relationship to their parents. Eventually they start to see that their parent's aren't these super stable, infallible people who have all the answers, and maybe conclude that they don't want to rely on them anymore.

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    • I never thought that Ellie saw Joel as a "superhero" or something like that...

      By the way, i don't think that Joel thinks that Ellie believes his lie. I guess that he knows that she knows that he is lying, but he sticks to his lie because he doesn't wan't her to know the details of what happened...

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    • Asatorr wrote:
       

      Joel coming clean could prevent Ellie from leaving. She wants him to be honest with her, so that she knows that she can rely on him. The lie, in addition to Joel physically removing her from making a decision that was hers to make, is a huge part of why she can't rely on him anymore. It's not JUST what he did, but it's the fact that he's lying her about it.

      That's true. Telling the truth may not excuse the action but it can make it better, it certainly doesn't make it worse. But where I disagree is that Ellie was not conscious to make any kind of decision. So Ellie really has no right to be mad at Joel. Joel did what he did because he thought it was what Ellie wanted along with what he wanted and thought was right. Did Ellie ever say she wanted to die for the vaccine? No. So, what was Joel supposed to assume she would want to do? He did the RIGHT thing, by sparing her life. Now if Ellie told Joel flat out that she didn't mind dying for the vaccine and Joel went behind her back and stopped it from happening? Yeah, that's wrong. Because that was basically Ellie's dying wish. It's like.. asking someone to watch your kid. And the babysitter allows them to eat candy but you don't agree with that. Well, you have no right to be mad at the babysitter if you didn't specify to them that they don't want their kid eating candy. Ellie never specified that she was okay with dying for the vaccine. So Joel (and most of the audience) thought he did the right thing by saving her life from the greedy Fireflies who only wanted to throw her under the knife to be done with finding a cure - people were dying, they were losing hope, and they were running out of time. So they threw Ellie on the operating table without even consulting her. That's wrong. HONESTLY you guys, how would you feel if Ellie was killed without her even knowing? Let's take a moment to think about that. HOW FREAKEN WRONG is that?? It's SO wrong! Just for the simple fact that what the Fireflies did was wrong, Joel is a hero for saving her from them. Don't deny that you would be furious with an ending where Ellie died at the hands of the Fireflies without even knowing what was going on. How on Earth was she supposed to make that decision? She couldn't. And Joel was there to save her. At least Joel saved her so that she could live another day to think about it. AND THEN everything comes full circle when Ellie reveals that the only reason she cared so much for the vaccine was because it was a way of avenging her friends' deaths. She didn't want to die. So Joel saving her WAS the right thing to do. She thought it was a better option than killing herself or throwing herself to the infected to be ripped apart. That's why she went on the journey. And she kept it from Joel the entire time because she was embarrassed to tell him that she was feeling guilty the whole time. Her end confession in my opinion was both a way for her to explain to Joel why it meant so much to her (her friends dying; not saving the world) and also a way to reach out for Joel to help her come to terms with the guilt she was feeling because whether she knew Joel was lying or not, the opportunity came and left. Also, it's not like she believed the lie and then years later found out and was very angry. She knew or had an idea that he was lying. And she knows he's lying to protect her. She has to know that because he did it earlier in the game (the farm house). I have a hard time believing that she doesn't understand that he was lying to protect her. 

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    • I think the significance of Joel's lie, as difficult as it was to digest, was that it reminded the audience that even though he did the right thing by saving Ellie, he is still flawed enough that he would lie to her. But then we learn that the lie was to protect her - a very troubled, not-so-emotionally-strong young woman looking to a father figure for help and protection. And parents lie all the time to their children to protect their innocence - and that's exactly what Joel did. It's not right, but it provides her with a sense of relief.. at least until she finds out the truth. When she finds out the truth, she may leave. She and Joel may fight. She might be old enough to understand why he did it. By the time she finds out, her survivor's guilt may have subsided and she may be grateful for Joel saving her from something she didn't want to do afterall. Who knows.. 

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    • Winterlotus90 wrote:

      That's true. Telling the truth may not excuse the action but it can make it better, it certainly doesn't make it worse. But where I disagree is that Ellie was not conscious to make any kind of decision. ...

      I don't really get how what the fireflies tried to do is "SO WRONG" but what Joel did (slaughtering the Fireflies, including Marlene and the head surgeon, and denying humanity a much-needed vaccine) is somehow heroic. He basically damned millions of people to die at the hands of CBI. I mean, how many people in the game, especially in his past, does Joel just flat-out murder? And we forgive him. Because it's "survival." But it's somehow unforgivable for the fireflies to sacrifice ONE person for a cause that could turn humanity around? I'd say that in those dire circumstances, humans as a species have to do what is necessary to survive when threatened with a disease like CBI. If that means sacrificing one person, then that seems like an exceedingly good deal to me. It's sad and wrong by our own (non-apocalyptic) morals because we love Ellie and know her personally, but this is all of humanity hanging in the balance. 

      I honestly don't think that Joel even thought about what Ellie really would have wanted until Marlene asked him after the elevator, and the look on his face in that moment says it all. He was doing this for himself. Because HE couldn't go on without her. Because HE wanted to "resolve" the powerlessness he felt at losing Sarah. 

      And in the end, we're talking about what Ellie thinks here. We know so much more than she does, both about Joel and what happened in the hospital. She can't conclude with the absolution that you did how she feels about it. She knows that Joel is lying, lying about something that was really important to her, something that she'd fought tooth and nail for a year to get to, only to have it bluntly end on a lie. That's it. 

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    • Gear3ful wrote:
      I never thought that Ellie saw Joel as a "superhero" or something like that...

      By the way, i don't think that Joel thinks that Ellie believes his lie. I guess that he knows that she knows that he is lying, but he sticks to his lie because he doesn't wan't her to know the details of what happened...

      Well yeah, he's not literally a superhero, but he's someone she relies on to protect her, and someone who she looks up to. She's idealized him. This is especially apparent before Winter, when Joel collapses and her last words we hear are "tell me what to do!" She's obviously panicked because she cares about Joel and he may die, but she's mostly concerned that she may be left on her own, and doesn't think she can do that. He's her 'hero" who she relies on to save/take care of her. So then, in that last moment in the epilogue, she sees a vulnerability in Joel's lie, therfore seeing him beyond his role as protector, and instead seeing him as the flawed, damaged human being he really is.

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    • MayonnEgg wrote:
      Winterlotus90 wrote:

      That's true. Telling the truth may not excuse the action but it can make it better, it certainly doesn't make it worse. But where I disagree is that Ellie was not conscious to make any kind of decision. ...

      I don't really get how what the fireflies tried to do is "SO WRONG" but what Joel did (slaughtering the Fireflies, including Marlene and the head surgeon, and denying humanity a much-needed vaccine) is somehow heroic. He basically damned millions of people to die at the hands of CBI. I mean, how many people in the game, especially in his past, does Joel just flat-out murder? And we forgive him. Because it's "survival." But it's somehow unforgivable for the fireflies to sacrifice ONE person for a cause that could turn humanity around? I'd say that in those dire circumstances, humans as a species have to do what is necessary to survive when threatened with a disease like CBI. If that means sacrificing one person, then that seems like an exceedingly good deal to me. It's sad and wrong by our own (non-apocalyptic) morals because we love Ellie and know her personally, but this is all of humanity hanging in the balance. 

      I honestly don't think that Joel even thought about what Ellie really would have wanted until Marlene asked him after the elevator, and the look on his face in that moment says it all. He was doing this for himself. Because HE couldn't go on without her. Because HE wanted to "resolve" the powerlessness he felt at losing Sarah. 

      And in the end, we're talking about what Ellie thinks here. We know so much more than she does, both about Joel and what happened in the hospital. She can't conclude with the absolution that you did how she feels about it. She knows that Joel is lying, lying about something that was really important to her, something that she'd fought tooth and nail for a year to get to, only to have it bluntly end on a lie. That's it. 

      You're right.. I know they both have their major faults.. Joel is no better than the Fireflies and vice versa.. I guess because of how much he cares about Ellie I find it heroic. I mean, I'd "selfishly" save my loved one over humanity any day. As a human we can all relate to that with Joel. I guess I'd depressingly think that humanity was too far gone and we've damaged so much of the Earth to really deserve a second chance so, what's fair is fair right? Let the human race suffer from this disease since there's a reason nature procurred it to be our damnation. I suck don't I? lol.. But I'd say let nature run its course. Maybe it was a way to re-balance nature since humanity has destroyed so much of it already. 

      He could have been shocked wondering why Marlene would have said what she said? Like "this is what she would have wanted." And it would have taken Joel aback thinking "why would Marlene say that? Did Ellie tell her that?" Because after all we know this is NOT what Ellie wanted. She didn't say she wanted to die. Joel and Marlene are equally selfish in their decisions.

      True. I don't think she can conclude anything really if she doesn't know what happened. She shouldn't assume things either. She should have talked about it more with Joel. She should have called him out on his lie like she did before, but she didn't. She should have gotten the truth out of him like she knows how to do before making any judgment about leaving him or being disappointed and angry. She should know the whole story. 

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    • Winterlotus90 wrote:

      You're right.. I know they both have their major faults.. Joel is no better than the Fireflies and vice versa.. I guess because of how much he cares about Ellie I find it heroic. I mean, I'd "selfishly" save my loved one over humanity any day. As a human we can all relate to that with Joel. I guess I'd depressingly think that humanity was too far gone and we've damaged so much of the Earth to really deserve a second chance so, what's fair is fair right? Let the human race suffer from this disease since there's a reason nature procurred it to be our damnation. I suck don't I? lol.. But I'd say let nature run its course. Maybe it was a way to re-balance nature since humanity has destroyed so much of it already. 

      He could have been shocked wondering why Marlene would have said what she said? Like "this is what she would have wanted." And it would have taken Joel aback thinking "why would Marlene say that? Did Ellie tell her that?" Because after all we know this is NOT what Ellie wanted. She didn't say she wanted to die. Joel and Marlene are equally selfish in their decisions.

      True. I don't think she can conclude anything really if she doesn't know what happened. She shouldn't assume things either. She should have talked about it more with Joel. She should have called him out on his lie like she did before, but she didn't. She should have gotten the truth out of him like she knows how to do before making any judgment about leaving him or being disappointed and angry. She should know the whole story. 

      Ah okay I get you. Yeah, I mean, Joel did what any parent would have done in the end. I guess I was thinking you were saying "Joel should be seen as a hero by all!" and I was all "whut?" Haha. And you're not terrible haha, I just wasn't sure which perspective you were looking at it from.

      And yeah it's difficult because there's so much ambiguity in a lot of scenes in this game. There's a lot left unsaid, not just in the ending. So it's sometimes hard to know what to conclude from something like a "look." but that's just what I concluded there. 

      I think maybe her "okay" could be interpreted as her being done with trying to get Joel to open up about stuff like that. Maybe when Joel says "I swear," she knows that she's not gonna get anything else out of him, kinda like when a parent says "and that's final!" and she's just saying "okay," just to accept that that's what Joel is doing. I mean, maybe she's saying "okay" because she doesn't know what else to say, really. 

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    • Winterlotus90 wrote:
      Asatorr wrote:
       
      That's true. Telling the truth may not excuse the action but it can make it better, it certainly doesn't make it worse. But where I disagree is that Ellie was not conscious to make any kind of decision. So Ellie really has no right to be mad at Joel. Joel did what he did because he thought it was what Ellie wanted along with what he wanted and thought was right. Did Ellie ever say she wanted to die for the vaccine? No. So, what was Joel supposed to assume she would want to do? He did the RIGHT thing, by sparing her life. Now if Ellie told Joel flat out that she didn't mind dying for the vaccine and Joel went behind her back and stopped it from happening? Yeah, that's wrong. Because that was basically Ellie's dying wish. It's like.. asking someone to watch your kid. And the babysitter allows them to eat candy but you don't agree with that. Well, you have no right to be mad at the babysitter if you didn't specify to them that they don't want their kid eating candy. Ellie never specified that she was okay with dying for the vaccine. So Joel (and most of the audience) thought he did the right thing by saving her life from the greedy Fireflies who only wanted to throw her under the knife to be done with finding a cure - people were dying, they were losing hope, and they were running out of time. So they threw Ellie on the operating table without even consulting her. That's wrong. HONESTLY you guys, how would you feel if Ellie was killed without her even knowing? Let's take a moment to think about that. HOW FREAKEN WRONG is that?? It's SO wrong! Just for the simple fact that what the Fireflies did was wrong, Joel is a hero for saving her from them. Don't deny that you would be furious with an ending where Ellie died at the hands of the Fireflies without even knowing what was going on. How on Earth was she supposed to make that decision? She couldn't. And Joel was there to save her. At least Joel saved her so that she could live another day to think about it. AND THEN everything comes full circle when Ellie reveals that the only reason she cared so much for the vaccine was because it was a way of avenging her friends' deaths. She didn't want to die. So Joel saving her WAS the right thing to do. She thought it was a better option than killing herself or throwing herself to the infected to be ripped apart. That's why she went on the journey. And she kept it from Joel the entire time because she was embarrassed to tell him that she was feeling guilty the whole time. Her end confession in my opinion was both a way for her to explain to Joel why it meant so much to her (her friends dying; not saving the world) and also a way to reach out for Joel to help her come to terms with the guilt she was feeling because whether she knew Joel was lying or not, the opportunity came and left. Also, it's not like she believed the lie and then years later found out and was very angry. She knew or had an idea that he was lying. And she knows he's lying to protect her. She has to know that because he did it earlier in the game (the farm house). I have a hard time believing that she doesn't understand that he was lying to protect her. 

      None of this matters. Besides, a lot of what you said is open to intepretation. It comes down to one thing: Ellie wanted to make the choice, but it was taken away by someone she relied on and trusted, and that person she trusted lied to her about it. Ellie doesn't have to totally hate Joel, but she knows she cant trust him and needs to independent. 

      Independent is a key word. Stop thinking about Ellie hating Joel. It isnt about that. It's about independence. It's Ellie realization that *for her own sake* she can't rely on other people anymore. 

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    • Wow... There seems to be quite alot of Joel-hate around here...

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    • Like it or not,I am a big fan of Joel.I support his decision of saving Ellie because if I was in his position,I would have done the same thing.Imagine if it was one of your loved ones,would u do it?

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    • Agreed.

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    • I guess both Ellie and Joel are doing the right thing.

      He wants to keep her at his side because he feels her as a new daughter, replacing the space Sarah left.

      She realized that she needs to be more independent in order to be able to do her own choises, and Joel won't let her do her choises because he is doing a protective father role. (Sorry bad english)

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    • For the record, I don't hate Joel at all. I feel for him. He's suffered a fate worse than death. No parent should have to bury their child (although he probably didn't even get to bury Sarah). What I do hate is Joel's lying. 

      I try not to take sides on the ending in terms of who was right and who was wrong, but had the game given me a choice, I still would have saved Ellie. 

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    • I know most people will disagree with me now, but i really don't think that Joel lying to Ellie was as horrible as people try to make it sound...

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    • Winterlotus90 wrote:
      MayonnEgg wrote:
      Winterlotus90 wrote:

      He could have been shocked wondering why Marlene would have said what she said? Like "this is what she would have wanted." And it would have taken Joel aback thinking "why would Marlene say that? Did Ellie tell her that?" Because after all we know this is NOT what Ellie wanted. She didn't say she wanted to die. Joel and Marlene are equally selfish in their decisions.

      True. I don't think she can conclude anything really if she doesn't know what happened. She shouldn't assume things either. She should have talked about it more with Joel. She should have called him out on his lie like she did before, but she didn't. She should have gotten the truth out of him like she knows how to do before making any judgment about leaving him or being disappointed and angry. She should know the whole story. 

      How can you definitively say this is NOT what Ellie wanted? She may not have said outright, "I don't want to die for this cure," but she doesn't need to. There are hints that imply the opposite, that she would have wanted to die for it. 

      Ellie has every right to be pissed or disappointed with Joel. She's smart enough to be able to conclude that Joel did something major. She should know the whole story, but it isn't up to her to get the truth from Joel, it's up to Joel to tell her. 

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    • Actually Gearful,I agree with you.Im not mad at Joel,everybody should understand that it was a very difficult situation to be stuck in.Imagine if you were in his position,going across the country,protecting someone you love so much,the only person you love and havent lost, for a year and suddenly have been asked to let her die.Honestly,I am happy with Joels decision.All with me say I !!!

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    • @Firedup ^ I, LOL!!

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    • I thought this topic was about what Ellie thinks about what Joel did, not what we all think about it....

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    • Joel made the right decision the ending end the best it can

      The world took everything (Sarah) form Joel 

      Joel took everything (Ellie the cure to make the world before the Outbreak) form the world

      Perfectly the story ends the best it could.....

      So Now What ? (I mean after the ending)

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    • MayonnEgg wrote:
      I thought this topic was about what Ellie thinks about what Joel did, not what we all think about it....

      Yeah, but this is also about what people think that Ellie thinks about what Joel did... But you are right, this is not about what we think about Joel's decision.

      By the way. I actually don't think taht Ellie has a right to hate (like Neil Druckmann said) or be so dissapointed in Joel that she would leave Joel in this case.

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    • MayonnEgg wrote:
      I thought this topic was about what Ellie thinks about what Joel did, not what we all think about it....

      You know....I have noticed that whenever I come into a conversation and say something good,its always off topic.And whenever I say something,someone always realizes that we're going offtopic.

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    • Gear3ful wrote:

      By the way. I actually don't think taht Ellie has a right to hate (like Neil Druckmann said) or be so dissapointed in Joel that she would leave Joel in this case.

      I don't understand what you mean by saying Ellie doesn't have "the right" to feel that way. Pretty sure she can feel however she wants. Or in this case, however she is written to feel.

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    • "We take 9 Months to be Born into this World... But... It takes only 1 Second to Die & Leave it Behind." So if Ellie was to Think anything it would've better be a Big Thank You to Joel for Saving her Reguardless of the Situation. (Also I Think it would have been Best for Ellie to Know the Truth & leave the Decision up to her (Eventho that's a lot of Pressure to be putting on a Kid) Simple Quest?on Ellie... Do you want to Live or do you want to Die?


      "Children Cry as they Enter this World of Sin & So must We... But we must also Praise their Death When Leaving... For the Pains of the World is No More & the Joyous Calm of Death Immortal."

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    • MayonnEgg wrote:
      Gear3ful wrote:

      By the way. I actually don't think taht Ellie has a right to hate (like Neil Druckmann said) or be so dissapointed in Joel that she would leave Joel in this case.

      I don't understand what you mean by saying Ellie doesn't have "the right" to feel that way. Pretty sure she can feel however she wants. Or in this case, however she is written to feel.

      Maybe i didn't say it right.     The thing i meant was that there is no reason for Ellie to hate Joel. I know that you will probably disagree with me, but that's still my opinion.

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    • Firedup wrote:

      You know....I have noticed that whenever I come into a conversation and say something good,its always off topic.And whenever I say something,someone always realizes that we're going offtopic.

      Is it really like that?        Well, sorry :)

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    • Gear3ful wrote:

      Maybe i didn't say it right.     The thing i meant was that there is no reason for Ellie to hate Joel. I know that you will probably disagree with me, but that's still my opinion.

      Ah okay. Why do you feel that way? How did you come to that conclusion?

      And Neil never said that Ellie hates Joel in the first place. That's just what the OP wrote in the title. He's just saying that Ellie may leave in the future to find her own way. I mean, I left my parents when I moved out, but I didn't hate them or anything, I just didn't want to rely on them anymore. Leaving somebody isn't inherently a hateful thing. 

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    • Firedup wrote:
      MayonnEgg wrote:
      I thought this topic was about what Ellie thinks about what Joel did, not what we all think about it....
      You know....I have noticed that whenever I come into a conversation and say something good,its always off topic.And whenever I say something,someone always realizes that we're going offtopic.

      Well, you were being off-topic, so I don't know what to tell you. Maybe stop this pattern from continuing?

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    • Gear3ful wrote:
      I know most people will disagree with me now, but i really don't think that Joel lying to Ellie was as horrible as people try to make it sound.

      It's not the lie alone, it's the lie in the context of everything he did that led up to it. This isn't about whether you personally have a problem with Joel lying, but how Ellie, from her perspective, feels about Joel lying to her. It doesn't feel like a big deal to us because we know what happened. From Ellie's perspective, she's left with a lot of unanswered questions with the only person she trusts refusing to answer them. 

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    • MayonnEgg wrote:

      It's not the lie alone, it's the lie in the context of everything he did that led up to it. This isn't about whether you personally have a problem with Joel lying, but how Ellie, from her perspective, feels about Joel lying to her. It doesn't feel like a big deal to us because we know what happened. From Ellie's perspective, she's left with a lot of unanswered questions with the only person she trusts refusing to answer them. 

      The title was a quote... That is actually what Neil Druckmann said (not exactly). But he sadi that Ellie loves him for saving her but she hates him for taking away her decision.

      And leaving someone in the real world and leaving someone in the world of The Last of Us isn't really comparable... I mean, she would never see Joel again. And being at Tommy's place is probably a better life thean anyone could have hoped for...

      I see what you mean. And i can understand that these unsnwered question would bug her... but they obviously don't bug her enough to force the truth out of Joel (That was a weird choice of words. What i meant is to tell him that she knows that he is lying).

      In my opinion, one of the reasons why Ellie doesn't tell Joel that she knows that he is lying, is maybe because she is also scared that their relationship would come to an end or something like that.

      Well, i don't want to go offtopic, but there's an interesting question:

      If Ellie actually knew that Joel was lying, why didn't she tell him that she knows?

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    • Gear3ful wrote:

      The title was a quote... That is actually what Neil Druckmann said (not exactly). But he sadi that Ellie loves him for saving her but she hates him for taking away her decision.

      And leaving someone in the real world and leaving someone in the world of The Last of Us isn't really comparable... I mean, she would never see Joel again. And being at Tommy's place is probably a better life thean anyone could have hoped for...

      I see what you mean. And i can understand that these unsnwered question would bug her... but they obviously don't bug her enough to force the truth out of Joel (That was a weird choice of words. What i meant is to tell him that she knows that he is lying).

      In my opinion, one of the reasons why Ellie doesn't tell Joel that she knows that he is lying, is maybe because she is also scared that their relationship would come to an end or something like that.

      Well, i don't want to go offtopic, but there's an interesting question:

      If Ellie actually knew that Joel was lying, why didn't she tell him that she knows?

      Whoops, maybe I should have explained. I meant that there's a HUGE difference between saying that Ellie "hates Joel for denying her of that choice," and just saying that Ellie hates Joel period. What Neil was saying just means that she's angry with him for something he's done. Not that she hates him forever or doesn't love him anymore.

      I don't know if I'd agree that she'd never see Joel again if she left. I mean, Joel was able to see Tommy again after how many years? It's not impossible, especially knowing where he is and all. Wanting to go off and be on your own for the first time is a natural part of growing up. It may not be super practical considering the awesome digs at Tommy's, but Ellie feels that way nonetheless. She has to go "find herself" and find out who she is when not attached to another person. Again, this isn't necessarily going to happen overnight- she may live with Joel till she's 18 or something and then leave. Neil never specifies. 

      And I don't see where it's Ellie's job to "force" the truth out of Joel. What is she supposed to do, tie him to a chair and waterboard him? It's Joel's responsibility to tell her. I'd say that when Ellie says to Joel "swear to me! Swear to me that everything you told me about the fireflies is the truth!" That's her trying to force the truth out. She's giving him a chance to come clean. But obviously it didn't work out, because Joel still stands by his lie. And at that point, Ellie knows that Joel isn't going to give her any answers.

      It's kind of a bad idea to get into why someone didn't say/do something. I mean, there's a lot of things that Ellie could have said/done in that moment. But she didn't, and that's that. People don't always act rationally/logically in situations like this. And I mean, I'd say that her saying "swear to me!" is her saying that she knows that he's lying, and calling his bluff. But Joel still sticks to his story, so she then realizes that the conversation is over, and nothing she says is going to get the answers she wants out of Joel.

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    • Maybe you are right. But i didn't mean that Ellie would tie Joel to a chair or anything like that :) I just meant the she should tell him that she knows that he is lying. That would be more direct than the "swear to me".

      . And i believe that "finding yourself" is a thing in the real world, but it's really not worth risking in The Last of Us. And it was basically a miracle that Joel and Ellie survived.                          Ellie will learn it, but right now, she isn't capable of doing that on her own. For example with Marlene, most of her people died on the way to Salt Lake City. And Ellie and Joel surviving was just because Joel was willing o do everything to keep her safe.                                     And if Ellie would leave Joel, he would go after her. Even if he wouldn't know where she went. And the chances are very high that one of them would die on the journey.

      If Ellie would just leave, there is also a pretty high chance that she wouldn't make it... keep that in mind.

      Also, i am not sure if Neil neccesary meant that Ellie was going to leave Joel. More like she won't trust him with decisions that are about her life. It would be quite a shock if Ellie would leave Joel. So i am really not sure if Ellie is going to leave Joel...

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    • Gear3ful wrote:

      . And i believe that "finding yourself" is a thing in the real world, but it's really not worth risking in The Last of Us. And it was basically a miracle that Joel and Ellie survived.                          Ellie will learn it, but right now, she isn't capable of doing that on her own.

      But she is capable. This is a major part of her arc and Druckmann's interpretation. The point is that she IS capable and doesn't need Joel, Marlene, or any other parental figure anymore. Her arc is all about her relying on people and not thinking she's capable, when in fact, she is.

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    • Joel will never leave Ellie

      and

      Ellie will never leave Joel

      its kind like father and daughter...

      Joel and Ellie needs each other

      its like Joel and Tommy brothers never should fight each other

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    • Asatorr wrote:

      But she is capable. This is a major part of her arc and Druckmann's interpretation. The point is that she IS capable and doesn't need Joel, Marlene, or any other parental figure anymore. Her arc is all about her relying on people and not thinking she's capable, when in fact, she is.

      She is much more capable than she thought she was.  But i don't think that she is capable enough to survive on her own...      The ambush in Pittsburg for example... I doubt wether Ellie would have survived that without Joel.

      Maybe Neil Druckmann meant that she is capable of being alone (that is what she was scared of). Ellie is very capable of surviving, but not nearly as capable as Joel is... not yet.

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    • Gear3ful wrote:

      She is much more capable than she thought she was.  But i don't think that she is capable enough to survive on her own...      The ambush in Pittsburg for example... I doubt wether Ellie would have survived that without Joel.

      Maybe Neil Druckmann meant that she is capable of being alone (that is what she was scared of). Ellie is very capable of surviving, but not nearly as capable as Joel is... not yet.

      The truck ambush is from pretty early in the game. Asotorr's point is that Ellie becomes more capable and aware of her capabilities throughout the game. Of course she didn't seem capable in the beginning of the game, she grows throughout the journey. Her true turning point was in Winter (or the very end of fall.) She took care of Joel alone in the forest in dead winter for weeks (maybe months,) and was able to subdue David herself. That's when Ellie found out what she was truly capable of and "lost her innocence."

      And Ellie doesn't have to become as capable as Joel. Again, this is about how Ellie FEELS, not what is most practical. Would it be great if she waited till she became as capable as Joel before leaving? Yeah! But Ellie can feel that she has to go out on her own to find herself despite it maybe being a bad idea. That's how feelings are- they're not always logical and they rarely come at the most convenient time.

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    • I know that the ambush was early on in the game.  But Winter-Ellie probably wouldn't have survived it either.

      Well, i suppose we will maybe find out if Ellie will leave or not in the next couple of years.         Hopefully with the DLC, maybe with the next The Last of Us game or maybe never.

      What would happen if Ellie would leave?     I suppose that chances are high that something could happen to her.          And Joel would surely follow her.

      But i still don't think that she will leave...

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    • Gear3ful wrote:
      Asatorr wrote:
      She is much more capable than she thought she was.  But i don't think that she is capable enough to survive on her own...      The ambush in Pittsburg for example... I doubt wether Ellie would have survived that without Joel.

      Maybe Neil Druckmann meant that she is capable of being alone (that is what she was scared of). Ellie is very capable of surviving, but not nearly as capable as Joel is... not yet.

      The point is she realizes she can't keep relying on other people if she wants independence. I think Druckmann did mean she is capable of being alone, because by the end, I think she has mostly conquered that fear. Her fear of being alone comes from her thinking she needs someone else. 

      What MayonnEgg said is a good point. It doesn't matter if it isn't a logical a thing to do, Ellie feels its necessary. Human beings don't always act from logic. Most of the time emotion overrides logic and reason, it did for Joel.

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    • Yeah i agree with that.

      And it is true that Ellie can't fully rely on Joel. But i think (maybe Ellie doesn't) that she can rely on him when it comes to anything except of her own life.

      And before the winter sequence Ellie wouldn't have been able to be alone emotionally, but now she would.

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    • Asatorr wrote:
      Winterlotus90 wrote:
      MayonnEgg wrote:
      Winterlotus90 wrote:
      He could have been shocked wondering why Marlene would have said what she said? Like "this is what she would have wanted." And it would have taken Joel aback thinking "why would Marlene say that? Did Ellie tell her that?" Because after all we know this is NOT what Ellie wanted. She didn't say she wanted to die. Joel and Marlene are equally selfish in their decisions.

      True. I don't think she can conclude anything really if she doesn't know what happened. She shouldn't assume things either. She should have talked about it more with Joel. She should have called him out on his lie like she did before, but she didn't. She should have gotten the truth out of him like she knows how to do before making any judgment about leaving him or being disappointed and angry. She should know the whole story. 

      How can you definitively say this is NOT what Ellie wanted? She may not have said outright, "I don't want to die for this cure," but she doesn't need to. There are hints that imply the opposite, that she would have wanted to die for it. 

      Ellie has every right to be pissed or disappointed with Joel. She's smart enough to be able to conclude that Joel did something major. She should know the whole story, but it isn't up to her to get the truth from Joel, it's up to Joel to tell her. 

      And there are hints that she DIDN'T want to die for it as well. So we can't say she did or didn't want to die for it for sure. Because it's both: she wanted to die to rid herself of the guilt. She didn't want to die because she explained to Joel of a life together with him after they found the Fireflies. I don't think she had a right to be pissed at Joel. It's not fair to Joel. She can be pissed at the situation but not at Joel for doing what he thought was right. She has to understand that. Bottom line, the Fireflies were going to kill her without her consent. What was Joel supposed to do? Let her die? No. And that's understandable. ESPECIALLY after everything they went through together, Joel was under the impression too that they were going to be together. Ellie spoke of a life with Joel after everything. And that's what Joel was thinking about and he saved her according to that. He didn't save her just for his own loving reasons as a father, but he did it also because of how Ellie spoke of a life together with him afterward. And how intrigued she was by life. And how overall happy Ellie was with life. She wasn't ready to die and Joel knew that deep down. And that's what makes everything "okay" in the end is Ellie's confession. Her confession answers all sorts of questions. It makes the story come full circle. It makes Joel's actions easier to cope with. It makes his lie seem more like a loving, parental remedy to the guilt Ellie is feeling than a blatant disregard for Ellie's feelings. It just.. makes sense. Ellie being angry for what Joel did for her and being fully aware that he was lying and wanting to even leave Joel? It doesn't make sense to me. It's not fulfilling. But is that what the story was supposed to do? Was it supposed to be unfulfilling? So there was no real reason for Ellie to come into Joel's life because she's just going to leave in the end anyway? Joel ends up back at square 1? No, I don't believe that. This is Joel's story and Ellie is staying. Ellie accepted what Joel told her, whether she has a hard time believing it or not. Her confession would have been pointless otherwise. The point of what Joel told her - that we keep finding something to fight for (which is the theme of the whole fricken game BTW) - becomes void at that point. 

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    • Wow, long time no see :)

      I totally agree with what you have said.  

      Ps: There was too much Joel hate going on around here...

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    • Gear3ful wrote:
      Wow, long time no see :)

      I totally agree with what you have said.  

      Ps: There was too much Joel hate going on around here...

      lol yeah. I got promoted at work and had to go to training and I've been working a lot so I haven't had time to come on. Plus my phone stopped sending me notifications that people were responding on the forums until recently so I decided to see what was up :P 

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    • Ah OK.

      Congratulations on the promotion :)

      The Forum has been quite dead for a while...

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    • I see that there were two competing visions for the future of mankind: Tommy's dam and the fireflies "research" (which is scientific bs in my opinion btw).  


      Ellie, knows that Joel is not being completely honest with her, and this causes a lot of discomfort.  But in the end, she accepts his explaination because she senses no mal intent towards her, and trusts him and loves him as a father figure. This is natural and hardwired into our genetic code.  Every teenager comes to the realization that they need to leave the roost.

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    • Winterlotus90 wrote:
      Asatorr wrote:
      Winterlotus90 wrote:
      MayonnEgg wrote:
      Winterlotus90 wrote: 

      What hints are there that she didn't want to die for the cure? Her saying something about Joel teaching her how to swim after this is done? That's not good enough. Anything else? Any real hints? The evidence for the other side, that she would have given for life for the cure, is pretty overwhelming. I mean, she outright admits it Joel at the end. "I'm still waiting for my turn." What do you think this means? 

      You don't think she has a right to be pissed at Joel? Are you serious? Ellie has the right to be pissed at whatever she wants, and it is completely understandable that she would be angry with Joel. 

      The Ellie that we see at the end is not the same Ellie that we saw during summer. She isn't this happy teenage girl who pulls out a book of horrible puns anymore. The journey has changed her. Her encounter with David has changed her. Do you really think she was happy with life at the end? 

      I don't think Joel's lie is blatant disregard for Ellie's feelings at all. Actually, I think he is doing it out love and wanting to keep her safe (nothing to do with remedying her guilt though IMO). The lie shows you how much Joel is actually willing to risk for Ellie. He's willing to risk his life for her, all of humanity, and most importantly, at the end he is even willing to risk his relationship with Ellie to keep her safe. Joel can tell that Ellie is angry with him when she presses him on the lie, so he lies to her because he thinks she will believe the lie and stay safe with him at Tommie's place. 

      You're focusing too much on Ellie hating Joel, and, I don't mean this as an insult, but I really think you're missing the point of Druckmann's (and my) interpretation. I've tried to explain this in other posts,  but I'll try again. 

      Think about Ellie's arc. She clings to parental figures (Marlene, Joel) because she thinks she needs someone to survive with in this world, someone to protect her.  She doesn't think she's capable. It doesn't always seems this way, but like any 14 year old girl, she hides her emotions and every once in a while that barrier comes down. You can see it happen in the ranch house argument, when she's talking to Sam about not wanting to be alone, when Joel falls off the horse near death. There are a couple more, but these are the big ones. 

      Winter shows us she is capable, and it changes Ellie. She doesn't need Joel to save her becuase she saves herself.  

      Ellie wants Joel to tell her the truth. She wants to be able to trust and rely on Joel, but when he lies she knows she can't. She's been relying on other people her whole life and Joel just made a decision about her LIFE and is now lying to her about it.  So now she decides that this might be a good time to stop relying on people and become her own person. With Joel around making decisions like this for her, she will never learn to survive and will be herself. 

      In almost every way, Ellie is a typical teenager, and every teenager wants their parents to stop making decisions for them. Everyone moves out eventually. Her arc is all about trust and independence. The core of the story is about parents providing their kids with the tools they need to be independent, so they can eventually live on their own. That's what happened at the end, although in a more complex and twisted way. 

      Shit, that was long. 

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    • ^ The above post is me. Wasn't signed in. 

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    • In The Last of Us, there are no typical teenagers anymore. Do you really think that Ellie leaving Joel is comparable to a kid leaving their parent's in real life? If Ellie leaves Joel, he will go after her. And there is a very high chance that she would die...

      Well, it is your opinion after all, but it is not mine (nor the one of a few other users), so we should simply agree to disagree...

      Also, i think that Ellie is basically still the same person. of course she has been through a lot of things... But she was normal again when she saw the giraffes...

      In the end, Ellie was just so depressed because she thought that she wasn't the cure for the world...   She thought that everything that she had been through had been for nothing. Over the past year, Ellie thought that she was the answer to all of the problems of the whole world. And in the ending, she was sad because Joel told her that she wasn't the cure... (even though she didn't believe him)

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    • Gear3ful wrote:
      In The Last of Us, there are no typical teenagers anymore. Do you really think that Ellie leaving Joel is comparable to a kid leaving their parent's in real life? If Ellie leaves Joel, he will go after her. And there is a very high chance that she would die...

      Well, it is your opinion after all, but it is not mine (nor the one of a few other users), so we should simply agree to disagree...

      Also, i think that Ellie is basically still the same person. of course she has been through a lot of things... But she was normal again when she saw the giraffes...

      In the end, Ellie was just so depressed because she thought that she wasn't the cure for the world...   She thought that everything that she had been through had been for nothing. Over the past year, Ellie thought that she was the answer to all of the problems of the whole world. And in the ending, she was sad because Joel told her that she wasn't the cure... (even though she didn't believe him)

      Okay, sure, she's not a typical teenager in the sense that she's killed people and has seen some pretty horrible stuff,  but that completely misses the point. It's how she behaves. It's how she hides her emotions, and every so often we see what she's really feeling. It's how she looks up to Joel and relies on him, and at the end, it's how she she knows she can't rely on these parental figures anymore. That's what I mean when I say she's a typical teenager. EVERY teenager goes through this. 

      Ellie leaving Joel is absolutely comparable to a kid leaving their parents in real life, because it's the same thing. What isn't the same is the world Ellie lives in, but that isn't the point. Whether or not Joel would go after her, or whether or not she would die is irrelevent (although I disagree with you that there's a high chance she would die, but that's a whole other discussion). It has nothing to do with that, it's just how Ellie feels. It's a coming of age story for her. 

      Actually, I might agree with you that there's still a bit of that kid inside her, but I would only partially agree with you. Saying Ellie is basically still the same person just ignores her arc and the huge character development that went on. 

      Ellie wasn't just depressed because she wasn't the cure anymore. That's certainly part of it, but that's too simple. There's more to it than that.

      You don't think she's upset because this person she's been travelling with for a year now has kind of betrayed her (even if it was out of love)? You don't think she's upset because a choice she wanted to make was voided by someone she trusted? You don't think she's upset because she's starting to see flaws in who she thought was this infallible person that she could trust? You don't think she's upset because this person is now lying to her? 

      Saying she's depressed/upset because she thought she was the cure and isn't anymore isn't good enough. 

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    • Ellie did defientily not see Joel as an infallible person...   she knew very well that Joel had many problems.

      Teenagers don't leave their parents because they are dissapointed in them... They leave them because everybody has to have their own life (in reality). That is not how it is in The Last of Us.

      Also, why do you think that Ellie wouldn't be likely to die?    She is alone, and it was basically a miracle that Ellie and Joel survived. Anyone would be in danger. I would also say that Joel would be likely to die (even though he is more capable of surviving at this point). Ellie wouldn't leave Joel because she would be become older. She would leave him so a cure could be made. And she would know that Joel would go after her.

      If all this wouldnÄt have happened, Ellie would never leave Joel. I still don't think that she will leave him, but there is a possibility.

      Ellie isn't the same person anymore (i didn't express myself right), but sh is still the person she has always been. The same goes for Joel, Joel basically became another person. But now he is more like he was before the outbreak...

      Of course Ellie is upset about Joel lying to her. But i don't think that that is the main reason for her being depressive. Also, everytime that we have seen Ellie being depressed, wasn't long after something bad happened. So maybe time will heal her. What i meant was that the thing about the cure was the main reason for her depression.

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    • Maybe infallible was the wrong word to use. What I'm saying is that Ellie relied on Joel and trusted him. She relied on him and trusted him in the same way that someone relies on their parents and looks up to their parents. 

      What do you mean that's not how it is in TLOU?  Again, you have missed the point. This is how Ellie feels. That's all that matters. It might not be logical, but again, that doesn't matter. As I've said before, people don't always do logical things. Emotion overrides logic and reason. You said it yourself, children leave because everyone needs a life of their own. This is the point of the ending from Ellie's perspective. 

      I say Ellie would be able to survive on her because that's a big part of her arc. By the end, she knows she's capable. We see it in winter. She can survive on her own. She doesn't need Joel anymore, she doesn't have this fear of being alone anymore. She leaves Joel because she can't trust him and wants independence, nothing to do with a cure. The cure isn't he point of the game. 

      I completely disagree that the cure is the main reason for her being upset. That's part of it, but as I stated in every other post, it isnot all the main reason. 

      Let me ask you this: do you agree with my (and Druckmann's) interpretation of Ellie's character arc? Not the ending, but her arc. 

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    • I mean that in the world of The Last of Us, people don't simply leave because they want to have an own life. And i know you disagree. So i didn't miss the point, i just don't agree.              Because i don't think that Ellie feels like she has to leave Joel. My point is that Ellie isn't that hateful towards Joel at all. (in my opinion)

      No, the cure wasn't the point of the game. But if Ellie knew that there is a possibilty of making a cure, she would maybe go looking for the Fireflies. Her leaving Joel would not be because he lied to her, or because he took away her choice. I think it could be because Ellie can finally help making a cure, that is what she prepared for for a whole year.

      You mean Ellie finding out that she doesn't need a parental figure? That she can survive on her own?

      Well, partly. Even though Ellie is more capable than most, it is quite likely that something could happen to her. Imagine if Ellie would have been in Pittsburg alone when the huters ambushed them...

      I agree that Ellie doesn't neccesarily need a parental figure anymore, and that she doesn't need someone to be with her. But i think that she will stay because she loves Joel.

      By the way, kust because it's Neil Druckmanns interpretation doesn't mean it's the right one. There is no right one, that is the thing about interpretation. Also, i think that Druckmann didn't actually mean that Ellie would phisically leave Joel. But more (like you said) that she is capable of taking care of herself. She doesn't rely on him anymore. But that doesn't mean that she will leave him... (again, in my opinion)

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    • So you agree with my interpretation of Ellie's arc, except for the part that she feels like she needs to leave Joel? 

      Well, if we agree with your interpretation than her arc goes something like this:

      -Has a fear of being alone. Does not think she's capable.

      -Relies on Marlene as a parental figure. 

      -Shifts to Joel as they start the journey. 

      -Wants to be like Joel and looks up to him, relies on him, and trusts him. 

      -Sometimes forces Joel to respect her as an equal. 

      -Winter happens. We see how capable she really is, and she sees that she's capable. *Saves herself.*

      -Loves Joel, but hates him as well for taking away that choice. Realizes she can't rely on Joel and needs to be independent. 

      -...Than decides to stay with Joel because she loves him...?

      That doesn't make sense, and if you agree with me about her arc, than how could you not see my interpretation of the ending? It doesn't complete her arc. It just misses it and it comes out of nowhere. You don't see how that ending doesn't make sense for her arc? 

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    • It only doesn't make sense to you. It makes sense to me...

      Why wouldn't it complete her arc?   I mean, Ellie doesn't have to leave Joel, why woulde she? Maybe she will get over Joel lying to her. That doesn't miss her arc. Maybe to you it does, but i know that there are many people who don't have that opinion. 

      Also, Ellie can rely on Joel. Just not with things that would cost her life...    I think that Ellie really can rely on him. Just because Ellie is capable of surviving on her own, doesn't mean that she has to run away.

      And i know that you will disagree with that as well.   It doesn't seem like anyone of us will be likely to change their mind...

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    • Why would it complete he arc? 

      Neil Druckmann: "The thing she [Ellie] wanted most in life was this father figure, but to be truly independent she knows she has to give that up."

      She has to leave Joel because she feels it's necessary. 

      It doesn't matter if you think Ellie can rely on Joel, what matters is Ellie feels like she can't anymore. 

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    • But does Ellie feeling ike she can't fully rely on Joel anymore mean the she has to leave him?

      And hoe does leaving Joel complete her story arc? Maybe she has to give up the strong emotional bond that she has with him... but leaving him? maybe, but i think not...

      How do you know that she feels that it is neccesary to leave Joel?

      Maybe she will stop seing Joel as a father figure, but more like a friend instead...   Maybe Ellie already stopped seing Joel as a father figure after the Firefly incident...

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    • There has been a breach of trust. As we've already established, Ellie can't trust or rely on Joel (or anyone else) anymore. Ellie's "okay" is her waking up and realizing this. It wouldn't make sense for her to stay with Joel because of that breach of trust that has happened, and if she truly wants independence, she can't stay with Joel because, in her eyes, Joel will only continue to deny her independence.  

      Her arc is about trust and independence. If she stays with Joel, she isn't truly idependent. Her leaving Joel would complete her arc because she wouldn't be relying on anyone anymore. She'd be out on her own, making her own decisions, not being afraid of being alone anymore, and not thinking she needs someone else. 

      I don't know what she'll see Joel as. Definitely not a father figure, and maybe not even a friend. 

      This discussion isn't really going anywhere though. We both just keep repeating ourselves. 

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    • But does Ellie want true indipendence?

      What you or i say are not a facts. So we will have to wait for the next game to find the answer.

      Oviously we have many differences in how we view Joel and Ellie. I see the one way, you see them another.

      Maybe it is because you don't like Joel as much as i do (seemingly)...

      But for now, let's just both say that non of us is completely right with this.  Ok?

      It would be good if somebody new would post something in this thread...

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    • Wow...I'm pretty naive I guess. I thought the "OK", was her really believing Joel's lie!! Then I find that most gamers thought her OK was, "OK, ur lying...but just be my daddy". Now I find that her OK was "OK....go fuck yourself Joel".

      I like where Drukmann's coming from with this. I've posted here before that Joel's selfish desires to have a daughter shouldn't outweigh Ellie's right to make the decision on her own, IMO. Joel's bitterness is cold, but shouldn't sacrifice the future of humanity just to warm it up with a new daughter.

      Odd to me though, that after all the talking-back she did to Joel, why would she hide her emotions and distrust now? Maybe she's just over it....like "u saved my life, but you also ruined it...fuck u [beneath her breath]".

      Joel killed what were probably the last neurosurgeons in the country/world, where would Ellie even go in a sequel, if she wanted to try this again? Would be cool to see them in more recognizable delapidated cities, maybe like NYC, SF...lol even DC (the Wastes!).

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    • To be fair, you only had to kill one of the surgeons...   Also, i think that most of the surgeons are in the Quarantine Zone.

      It is not  fact that Ellie meant "Ok... go **** yourself", i really do not belive that she meant it like that.

      And i think that Joel's actions were not commited out of selfishness.   Joel lied well knowing that Ellie might hate him for what he has done. So in the end, he even put his relationship with Ellie on the line in order to protect her.   To me, this kinda shoes that he didn't act out of selfish reasons.

      I never noticed how many people actually don't like Joel...

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    • 24.57.145.242 wrote:
      Winterlotus90 wrote:
      Asatorr wrote:
      Winterlotus90 wrote:
      MayonnEgg wrote:
      Winterlotus90 wrote: 
      What hints are there that she didn't want to die for the cure? Her saying something about Joel teaching her how to swim after this is done? That's not good enough. Anything else? Any real hints? The evidence for the other side, that she would have given for life for the cure, is pretty overwhelming. I mean, she outright admits it Joel at the end. "I'm still waiting for my turn." What do you think this means? 

      You don't think she has a right to be pissed at Joel? Are you serious? Ellie has the right to be pissed at whatever she wants, and it is completely understandable that she would be angry with Joel. 

      The Ellie that we see at the end is not the same Ellie that we saw during summer. She isn't this happy teenage girl who pulls out a book of horrible puns anymore. The journey has changed her. Her encounter with David has changed her. Do you really think she was happy with life at the end? 

      I don't think Joel's lie is blatant disregard for Ellie's feelings at all. Actually, I think he is doing it out love and wanting to keep her safe (nothing to do with remedying her guilt though IMO). The lie shows you how much Joel is actually willing to risk for Ellie. He's willing to risk his life for her, all of humanity, and most importantly, at the end he is even willing to risk his relationship with Ellie to keep her safe. Joel can tell that Ellie is angry with him when she presses him on the lie, so he lies to her because he thinks she will believe the lie and stay safe with him at Tommie's place. 

      You're focusing too much on Ellie hating Joel, and, I don't mean this as an insult, but I really think you're missing the point of Druckmann's (and my) interpretation. I've tried to explain this in other posts,  but I'll try again. 

      Think about Ellie's arc. She clings to parental figures (Marlene, Joel) because she thinks she needs someone to survive with in this world, someone to protect her.  She doesn't think she's capable. It doesn't always seems this way, but like any 14 year old girl, she hides her emotions and every once in a while that barrier comes down. You can see it happen in the ranch house argument, when she's talking to Sam about not wanting to be alone, when Joel falls off the horse near death. There are a couple more, but these are the big ones. 

      Winter shows us she is capable, and it changes Ellie. She doesn't need Joel to save her becuase she saves herself.  

      Ellie wants Joel to tell her the truth. She wants to be able to trust and rely on Joel, but when he lies she knows she can't. She's been relying on other people her whole life and Joel just made a decision about her LIFE and is now lying to her about it.  So now she decides that this might be a good time to stop relying on people and become her own person. With Joel around making decisions like this for her, she will never learn to survive and will be herself. 

      In almost every way, Ellie is a typical teenager, and every teenager wants their parents to stop making decisions for them. Everyone moves out eventually. Her arc is all about trust and independence. The core of the story is about parents providing their kids with the tools they need to be independent, so they can eventually live on their own. That's what happened at the end, although in a more complex and twisted way. 

      Shit, that was long. 

      I'm not missing the point Asatorr. You can explain it til you're blue in the face, but I still have my own interpretations. I'm sorry. No disrespect. I didn't walk away from the game with the same interpretation as you and Mr. Druckmann. Even if he is the creator of the game, I still see it differently. Most people walked away from the game with an interpretation similar to mine. The ending is open to interpretation. Neil felt it meant one way. And I see it in another way. And that's okay! I feel like the core of the story is about Joel. It's Joel's story. He befriends this girl that needs him and he needs her just as much. The story isn't about Ellie. It's about Joel and more importantly, the relationship that comes out of him being a father that lost a daughter and her being a scared, troubled girl. I find irony though when you say that Ellie wants to make her own decisions and survive on her own when.. she basically wants to commit suicide. She basically just wants to opt out. She doesn't want to survive. Without Joel she'd die very quickly. She only survived this long because Marlene convinced her that her life is valuable elsewhere. Otherwise I believe Ellie would have committed suicide at some point. She's very.. emotionally hurt. She acts like she's okay with life but at the same time she just wants to give up because she feels guilty. I bet you're wondering what I think the point of the whole David thing is right? Like if it wasn't meant to make Ellie realize she's self-sufficient and doesn't need Joel than what must it mean, WinterLotus? Well. I don't interpret the outcome of the David scenario the same as you either. I see it as one more thing that makes Ellie want to opt out of life. Part of her is tired of living in this world. It just keeps getting worse. And it solidified her decision that she wants to die. The David thing terrified her to death. It was a scenario she never thought about encountering. Most women don't think it can happen to them and when it does it makes life a little more scary to live. And this made Ellie more sure of her decision to either find a cure and make the world a better place or if that doesn't work out then.. to just die. If you've seen The Walking Dead, there's a similarity between this complex relationship between Joel and Ellie and the one with Dale and Andrea. Andrea wants to die because she lost her sister. But Dale doesn't want her to die or rather he can't live without her, so he decides to die alongside her (the building is going to explode and Andrea decides to stay so she can escape the apocalyptic life). But she feels guilty knowing Dale is willing to die if she is. So, she decides to escape the building with Dale because she can't die knowing Dale's blood will be on her hands. But she later tells Dale angrily that he stole her choice at death. She tells him that he should have let her die if that's what she wanted. But she was too selfish to realize that Dale cared about her. He knows Andrea was dying for the wrong reasons. I am explaining this because I see the similarities between what Ellie was feeling and what Andrea was feeling as survivors of guilt. It's their ultimate decision to die, but the ones that care about them can't let them go on thinking that way. It's not a healthy way to think. And their lives are impacting others. I am listening to your point of view Asatorr I really am. I just don't see it lining up with Joel's story. It just doesn't make sense to me still and I am not in denial! I am holding on to my interpretation because it makes the most sense to me. 

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    • Riley her best friend is why she would have given up her life. Funny all you real fans don't understand that.

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    • 69.118.4.167 wrote:
      Riley her best friend is why she would have given up her life. Funny all you real fans don't understand that.

      Pretty sure everyone got this...

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    • Winterlotus90 wrote:
      24.57.145.242 wrote:
      Winterlotus90 wrote:
      Asatorr wrote:
      Winterlotus90 wrote:
      MayonnEgg wrote:
      Winterlotus90 wrote: 
      What hints are there that she didn't want to die for the cure? Her saying something about Joel teaching her how to swim after this is done? That's not good enough. Anything else? Any real hints? The evidence for the other side, that she would have given for life for the cure, is pretty overwhelming. I mean, she outright admits it Joel at the end. "I'm still waiting for my turn." What do you think this means? 

      You don't think she has a right to be pissed at Joel? Are you serious? Ellie has the right to be pissed at whatever she wants, and it is completely understandable that she would be angry with Joel. 

      The Ellie that we see at the end is not the same Ellie that we saw during summer. She isn't this happy teenage girl who pulls out a book of horrible puns anymore. The journey has changed her. Her encounter with David has changed her. Do you really think she was happy with life at the end? 

      I don't think Joel's lie is blatant disregard for Ellie's feelings at all. Actually, I think he is doing it out love and wanting to keep her safe (nothing to do with remedying her guilt though IMO). The lie shows you how much Joel is actually willing to risk for Ellie. He's willing to risk his life for her, all of humanity, and most importantly, at the end he is even willing to risk his relationship with Ellie to keep her safe. Joel can tell that Ellie is angry with him when she presses him on the lie, so he lies to her because he thinks she will believe the lie and stay safe with him at Tommie's place. 

      You're focusing too much on Ellie hating Joel, and, I don't mean this as an insult, but I really think you're missing the point of Druckmann's (and my) interpretation. I've tried to explain this in other posts,  but I'll try again. 

      Think about Ellie's arc. She clings to parental figures (Marlene, Joel) because she thinks she needs someone to survive with in this world, someone to protect her.  She doesn't think she's capable. It doesn't always seems this way, but like any 14 year old girl, she hides her emotions and every once in a while that barrier comes down. You can see it happen in the ranch house argument, when she's talking to Sam about not wanting to be alone, when Joel falls off the horse near death. There are a couple more, but these are the big ones. 

      Winter shows us she is capable, and it changes Ellie. She doesn't need Joel to save her becuase she saves herself.  

      Ellie wants Joel to tell her the truth. She wants to be able to trust and rely on Joel, but when he lies she knows she can't. She's been relying on other people her whole life and Joel just made a decision about her LIFE and is now lying to her about it.  So now she decides that this might be a good time to stop relying on people and become her own person. With Joel around making decisions like this for her, she will never learn to survive and will be herself. 

      In almost every way, Ellie is a typical teenager, and every teenager wants their parents to stop making decisions for them. Everyone moves out eventually. Her arc is all about trust and independence. The core of the story is about parents providing their kids with the tools they need to be independent, so they can eventually live on their own. That's what happened at the end, although in a more complex and twisted way. 

      Shit, that was long. 

      Well. I don't interpret the outcome of the David scenario the same as you either. I see it as one more thing that makes Ellie want to opt out of life. Part of her is tired of living in this world. It just keeps getting worse. And it solidified her decision that she wants to die. The David thing terrified her to death. It was a scenario she never thought about encountering. Most women don't think it can happen to them and when it does it makes life a little more scary to live. And this made Ellie more sure of her decision to either find a cure and make the world a better place or if that doesn't work out then.. to just die. If you've seen The Walking Dead, there's a similarity between this complex relationship between Joel and Ellie and the one with Dale and Andrea. 

      Depression is a sign of someone thinking about or wanting to die.

      Practicing whistling, telling jokes, begging Joel to sing for her, petting giraffes, enjoying views, FIGHTING FOR HER LIFE. etc is USUALLY not a sign of someone wanting to die. Though, some people do hide their depression, and exude normal behavior on the outside. Is that what u're thinking??

      "I find irony though when you say that Ellie wants to make her own decisions and survive on her own when.. she basically wants to commit suicide. She basically just wants to opt out. She doesn't want to survive."

      Ur completely on ur own on this one I think...I haven't heard ANYONE say anything remotely close to that. If that's something that you WANT to believe, go right ahead--but that is a very fringe analysis and statement for you to make.  

      Also, don't read too much into comparing Walking Dead to TLOU. I can't STAND that show! TLOU is way over WD's head in terms of acting, character building, story, effects and set-design (cant really compare TV to VG, but the feeling can be), music....I've tried to get into Walking Dead 3x now...can't do it. Yet, I'm on my 3rd playthrough here, so it's clearly not genre-specific.

      Ellie wants to die....why did she fight David so hard?? Why doesn't she just die with Joel, instead of going out of her way to save his ass with Penicillin and blankets?

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    • Ellie wanted to die to help many people also because the deal she made with her good friend. She feels she cheated her best friend by not being dead yet. She didn't want to die by a crazy pedo. Please use common sense.

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    • Also, don't read too much into comparing Walking Dead to TLOU. I can't STAND that show! TLOU is way over WD's head in terms of acting, character building, story, effects and set-design (cant really compare TV to VG, but the feeling can be), music....I've tried to get into Walking Dead 3x now...can't do it. Yet, I'm on my 3rd playthrough here, so it's clearly not genre-specific.

      Ellie wants to die....why did she fight David so hard?? Why doesn't she just die with Joel, instead of going out of her way to save his ass with Penicillin and blankets?


      First of all, as a person who watches a lot of movies and shows, the acting in The Walking Dead is actually very good. But i agree that the story-line is weaker than the one of The last of Us. Also, the character building is very good in the show. You can't judge the character building of a show by just watching a few episodes...

      Anyway, personally i think that The Last of Us has a better story and i love the voice acting. But The Walking Dead i not nearly as bad as you say it is...

      Besides, don't think that i don't like The Last of Us now, becasue it's by ar my favourite game ever.

      Ok, about Ellie.     I also think that Ellie wanted to live.   But she would have been ok with dying. Anyway, if Ellie would have wanted to die, she would have wanted to die AFTER  she saved all of humaity... Also, dying like that would be a horrible death!   How can you even question that someone would not defend him/her self when something like that happened.

      Personally, i really want to see Joel and Ellie together again. I don't know why you all think that Ellie thinks that she has to leave Joel...

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    • 69.118.4.167 wrote:
      Ellie wanted to die to help many people also because the deal she made with her good friend. She feels she cheated her best friend by not being dead yet. She didn't want to die by a crazy pedo. Please use common sense.

      It was not just Riley, Ellie felt responsible for so many deaths in the game. It's that survivor's guilt thing all over again.

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    • Gear3ful wrote:

      ...I don't know why you all think that Ellie thinks that she has to leave Joel...

                I'm kind of baffled as to how you can honestly ask this question at this point in the thread... So many people have painstakingly explained this exact thing multiple times, but you keep asking that question again and again and it makes it look like you're not really listening to what anyone who doesn't agree with you is saying.

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    • MayonnEgg wrote:
      Gear3ful wrote:

      ...I don't know why you all think that Ellie thinks that she has to leave Joel...

              I'm kind of baffled as to how you can honestly ask this question at this point in the thread... So many people have painstakingly explained this exact thing multiple times, but you keep asking that question again and again and it makes it look like you're not really listening to what anyone who doesn't agree with you is saying.

      Sorry, seems like i have chosen the wrong words.  I simply still don't agree with that (Ellie feeling like she has to leave Joel). So it was not actually a question to all of you people, but more like a remark to myself.

      So don't get annoyed at me for that. You 't actually meant to be answered  again. Everyone of us has their own opinion on Ellie's character.

      And i know that i have repeated myself, but so has pretty much everyone else in this thread (including yourself).

      If you look closesly, this thread is basically just repeating itself.

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    • ellie miss riley the most, she never knew her mom or dad

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    • Yes this article makes alot of sense seeing how with Riley's death of the infection made it where Ellie strived for survival and for the greater good of humanity, especially with Riley in her mind and how Ellie has the chance to stop what killed her best friend! With Joel taking this oppurtunitu away from her, she is unable to accomplish what would have stopped what her friend always wanted.

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    • idk. Ellie's survivor's guilt just makes me believe that she wants to die. which sounds like suicide crossed her mind at some point. that's why I mentioned that.

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    • JLiRD808 wrote:
      Winterlotus90 wrote:
      24.57.145.242 wrote:
      Winterlotus90 wrote:
      Asatorr wrote:
      Winterlotus90 wrote:
      MayonnEgg wrote:
      Winterlotus90 wrote: 
      What hints are there that she didn't want to die for the cure? Her saying something about Joel teaching her how to swim after this is done? That's not good enough. Anything else? Any real hints? The evidence for the other side, that she would have given for life for the cure, is pretty overwhelming. I mean, she outright admits it Joel at the end. "I'm still waiting for my turn." What do you think this means? 

      You don't think she has a right to be pissed at Joel? Are you serious? Ellie has the right to be pissed at whatever she wants, and it is completely understandable that she would be angry with Joel. 

      The Ellie that we see at the end is not the same Ellie that we saw during summer. She isn't this happy teenage girl who pulls out a book of horrible puns anymore. The journey has changed her. Her encounter with David has changed her. Do you really think she was happy with life at the end? 

      I don't think Joel's lie is blatant disregard for Ellie's feelings at all. Actually, I think he is doing it out love and wanting to keep her safe (nothing to do with remedying her guilt though IMO). The lie shows you how much Joel is actually willing to risk for Ellie. He's willing to risk his life for her, all of humanity, and most importantly, at the end he is even willing to risk his relationship with Ellie to keep her safe. Joel can tell that Ellie is angry with him when she presses him on the lie, so he lies to her because he thinks she will believe the lie and stay safe with him at Tommie's place. 

      You're focusing too much on Ellie hating Joel, and, I don't mean this as an insult, but I really think you're missing the point of Druckmann's (and my) interpretation. I've tried to explain this in other posts,  but I'll try again. 

      Think about Ellie's arc. She clings to parental figures (Marlene, Joel) because she thinks she needs someone to survive with in this world, someone to protect her.  She doesn't think she's capable. It doesn't always seems this way, but like any 14 year old girl, she hides her emotions and every once in a while that barrier comes down. You can see it happen in the ranch house argument, when she's talking to Sam about not wanting to be alone, when Joel falls off the horse near death. There are a couple more, but these are the big ones. 

      Winter shows us she is capable, and it changes Ellie. She doesn't need Joel to save her becuase she saves herself.  

      Ellie wants Joel to tell her the truth. She wants to be able to trust and rely on Joel, but when he lies she knows she can't. She's been relying on other people her whole life and Joel just made a decision about her LIFE and is now lying to her about it.  So now she decides that this might be a good time to stop relying on people and become her own person. With Joel around making decisions like this for her, she will never learn to survive and will be herself. 

      In almost every way, Ellie is a typical teenager, and every teenager wants their parents to stop making decisions for them. Everyone moves out eventually. Her arc is all about trust and independence. The core of the story is about parents providing their kids with the tools they need to be independent, so they can eventually live on their own. That's what happened at the end, although in a more complex and twisted way. 

      Shit, that was long. 

      Well. I don't interpret the outcome of the David scenario the same as you either. I see it as one more thing that makes Ellie want to opt out of life. Part of her is tired of living in this world. It just keeps getting worse. And it solidified her decision that she wants to die. The David thing terrified her to death. It was a scenario she never thought about encountering. Most women don't think it can happen to them and when it does it makes life a little more scary to live. And this made Ellie more sure of her decision to either find a cure and make the world a better place or if that doesn't work out then.. to just die. If you've seen The Walking Dead, there's a similarity between this complex relationship between Joel and Ellie and the one with Dale and Andrea. 
      Depression is a sign of someone thinking about or wanting to die.

      Practicing whistling, telling jokes, begging Joel to sing for her, petting giraffes, enjoying views, FIGHTING FOR HER LIFE. etc is USUALLY not a sign of someone wanting to die. Though, some people do hide their depression, and exude normal behavior on the outside. Is that what u're thinking??

      "I find irony though when you say that Ellie wants to make her own decisions and survive on her own when.. she basically wants to commit suicide. She basically just wants to opt out. She doesn't want to survive."

      Ur completely on ur own on this one I think...I haven't heard ANYONE say anything remotely close to that. If that's something that you WANT to believe, go right ahead--but that is a very fringe analysis and statement for you to make.  

      Also, don't read too much into comparing Walking Dead to TLOU. I can't STAND that show! TLOU is way over WD's head in terms of acting, character building, story, effects and set-design (cant really compare TV to VG, but the feeling can be), music....I've tried to get into Walking Dead 3x now...can't do it. Yet, I'm on my 3rd playthrough here, so it's clearly not genre-specific.

      Ellie wants to die....why did she fight David so hard?? Why doesn't she just die with Joel, instead of going out of her way to save his ass with Penicillin and blankets?

      Well when Ellie is like "I'm still waiting for my turn." in the end of the game, what else is she talking about? She's talking about how she still wants to die. She feels guilty for living = she wants to exit this world. 

      And I can compare TWD to TLOU if I want to, lol. I have a right to. I love TWD. It's a shame you don't like it, what to each their own. But I find a lot of similarities between the two. And not to burst your bubble, but the creators of TLOU have admitted to drawing inspiration from TWD. 

      Ellie wants to die for a good cause/a normal way. David wasn't going to kill her necessarily. He was implying rape, which is worse than death because it's torture. Something Ellie obviously and naturally fought against. Ellie is caught between a rock and hard place because she also wants to be with Joel. She doesn't necessarily want to leave him either, but she still is "waiting for her turn." Which means, she wants to be able to die a normal death like everyone else. She wants the ability to "turn" like everyone else and feels guilty for having immunity to the disease. 

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    • Gear3ful wrote:

      Sorry, seems like i have chosen the wrong words.  I simply still don't agree with that (Ellie feeling like she has to leave Joel). So it was not actually a question to all of you people, but more like a remark to myself.

      So don't get annoyed at me for that. You 't actually meant to be answered  again. Everyone of us has their own opinion on Ellie's character.

      And i know that i have repeated myself, but so has pretty much everyone else in this thread (including yourself).

      If you look closesly, this thread is basically just repeating itself.

      Well, regardless of how you meant it, that's how it comes across. I mean, it's not surprising that people would feel the need to repeat themselves when you just keep parroting variations of the same exact question back at them (the answers to which they have already discussed at length,) over and over. 

      You say that you don't agree- but you need to back that up with actual evidence of why you feel that way. Asatorr and Winterlotus90 have fleshed out both their arguments with actual things that happen in the game, but you don't tend to do that. You're just coming across as a contrarian at this point. 

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    • MayonnEgg wrote:
      Gear3ful wrote:

      Sorry, seems like i have chosen the wrong words.  I simply still don't agree with that (Ellie feeling like she has to leave Joel). So it was not actually a question to all of you people, but more like a remark to myself.

      So don't get annoyed at me for that. You 't actually meant to be answered  again. Everyone of us has their own opinion on Ellie's character.

      And i know that i have repeated myself, but so has pretty much everyone else in this thread (including yourself).

      If you look closesly, this thread is basically just repeating itself.

      Well, regardless of how you meant it, that's how it comes across. I mean, it's not surprising that people would feel the need to repeat themselves when you just keep parroting variations of the same exact question back at them (the answers to which they have already discussed at length,) over and over. 

      You say that you don't agree- but you need to back that up with actual evidence of why you feel that way. Asatorr and Winterlotus90 have fleshed out both their arguments with actual things that happen in the game, but you don't tend to do that. You're just coming across as a contrarian at this point. 

      But as you see, i now tried to stop repeating myself, so calm down...   After all, this thread is not here to complain about people. If you feel the need to complain about me, then write it on my message board.

      Partly, the reason why i haven't written any over-lenghty textsis because i am not capable of expressing my opinions on things in english (not my first language)).

      You know what, i will write on your message board and say why i think that. Since we don't want things to repeat themselves again... (about Ellie and Joel)

      By the way, i accidentaly made a mistake in my previous post, i meant to say that my question was not meant to be answered.

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    • 24.57.145.242 wrote:
      Winterlotus90 wrote:
      Asatorr wrote:
      Winterlotus90 wrote:
      MayonnEgg wrote:
      Winterlotus90 wrote: 
      What hints are there that she didn't want to die for the cure? Her saying something about Joel teaching her how to swim after this is done? That's not good enough. Anything else? Any real hints? The evidence for the other side, that she would have given for life for the cure, is pretty overwhelming. I mean, she outright admits it Joel at the end. "I'm still waiting for my turn." What do you think this means? 

      You don't think she has a right to be pissed at Joel? Are you serious? Ellie has the right to be pissed at whatever she wants, and it is completely understandable that she would be angry with Joel. 

      The Ellie that we see at the end is not the same Ellie that we saw during summer. She isn't this happy teenage girl who pulls out a book of horrible puns anymore. The journey has changed her. Her encounter with David has changed her. Do you really think she was happy with life at the end? 

      I don't think Joel's lie is blatant disregard for Ellie's feelings at all. Actually, I think he is doing it out love and wanting to keep her safe (nothing to do with remedying her guilt though IMO). The lie shows you how much Joel is actually willing to risk for Ellie. He's willing to risk his life for her, all of humanity, and most importantly, at the end he is even willing to risk his relationship with Ellie to keep her safe. Joel can tell that Ellie is angry with him when she presses him on the lie, so he lies to her because he thinks she will believe the lie and stay safe with him at Tommie's place. 

      You're focusing too much on Ellie hating Joel, and, I don't mean this as an insult, but I really think you're missing the point of Druckmann's (and my) interpretation. I've tried to explain this in other posts,  but I'll try again. 

      Think about Ellie's arc. She clings to parental figures (Marlene, Joel) because she thinks she needs someone to survive with in this world, someone to protect her.  She doesn't think she's capable. It doesn't always seems this way, but like any 14 year old girl, she hides her emotions and every once in a while that barrier comes down. You can see it happen in the ranch house argument, when she's talking to Sam about not wanting to be alone, when Joel falls off the horse near death. There are a couple more, but these are the big ones. 

      Winter shows us she is capable, and it changes Ellie. She doesn't need Joel to save her becuase she saves herself.  

      Ellie wants Joel to tell her the truth. She wants to be able to trust and rely on Joel, but when he lies she knows she can't. She's been relying on other people her whole life and Joel just made a decision about her LIFE and is now lying to her about it.  So now she decides that this might be a good time to stop relying on people and become her own person. With Joel around making decisions like this for her, she will never learn to survive and will be herself. 

      In almost every way, Ellie is a typical teenager, and every teenager wants their parents to stop making decisions for them. Everyone moves out eventually. Her arc is all about trust and independence. The core of the story is about parents providing their kids with the tools they need to be independent, so they can eventually live on their own. That's what happened at the end, although in a more complex and twisted way. 

      Shit, that was long. 

      This is exactly how I feel. I believe Ellie is now in a love / hate relationship with Joel.

      She knew Joel was lying when waking up in the car and hearing that bullshit story he told her. When Ellie finally gathered the courage to ask Joel to tell the truth, to swear on it, gave him a second chance - When someone you hold dearly, looks you in the eye and plain lies to you for the second time about something that is important as this.. She felt truly betrayed and is hurt real deep. She may or may not understand why Joel had done what he did, but one thing for sure is that lies are not good to have in any relationship, especially something as big as this.

      What I think is going happen is she will leave Joel, when she is stronger, as she can not fully trust him anymore but only when he is safe, but that is for another topic.

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    • ellie did not know she would have to die for the cure that most likley would have never come from the three docters the fireflys could provide ...for example she asked joel to teach her to swim when this was all over and she said I will go any where you want  when this is done or somthing to that effect .....she loved joel with out a doubt.

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    • We don't have the right to sacrifice a healthy human life for science now.. or never unlless the person is brain dead from an accident,,...

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    • I still think they very much cared for eachother, even after seeing the DLC.


      Her mind was in a weird place, she was basically suffering PTSD, and you can't kill someone with PTSD even if they would be willing to sacrifice themselves, it just ain't right.

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    • Especially after the DLC. Because we could see that Ellie was fighting for every moment that she could spend with Joel.

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    • Exactly, she was having 'flashbacks' of when she last lost the person she cared for most, and she wasn't willing to let that happen again. Thankfully she saved him, and Joel consequently 'saved' her, to put it one way :P

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    • I really think most people are just really need to understand about this "Ellie wanted to die" part.

      I'll get straight to the point here - Ellie at the start of the game, has NEVER had a consistent person in her life. People die or leave. During her journey with Joel this is the most shes EVER been with someone. She has consistency. She has someone she trusts and loves.  She personally believes that because of what has happened to 99% of people in her life that she HAS to be with someone, because she is always alone. She needs to be protected. 

      Then Winter happens....and you know what? This girl doesn't need to be scared of being alone anymore. 

      If anyone can tell me right now that after Winter, that Ellie is the SAME girl that we've all seen from the start of the game, then please honestly give me some REALLY GOOD EVIDENCE HERE. Or better yet what drugs are you taking? Ellie has changed. Shes changed so much. It's really upsetting (I felt this to be honest) what happened do David is just going through her mind 1000 miles per hour. This event was HUGE. It's changed her life guys. 

      It's actually quite odd, I personally felt at the end of the game, Joel was acting like Ellie like she was at the start of the game (Talkative, wanting conversation ect) where as Elllie had ended up like Joel like he was at the start (Just quiet, to the point ect) There was a serious twist that I had felt. 

      Now to cover my main point - I disagreed on what neil druckmann said...then I replayed the game. I've changed my entire opinion. 

      Joel saving Ellie, you know I'd do the same. But lets really see what Ellie wants. She wants to make sure her living wasn't in vain. She wants to make things right because she feels so horrible about the one person she was in love with (Riley) who died. Her being the cure, fixes it all. Ellies journey is making sure that she some how plays a major part in being this cure. And making sure her surviving isn't in vain. Understand why she is pissed off at Joel;

      Riley and her were bitten. They wanted to die together. They were in LOVE. She lived. She had a chance to be the cure. She had a chance to make sure Riley's death wasn't in vain. This is ruined. Ellie was saved by Joel, she goes to a sanctuary (well not entirely but its freedom and its a new beginning) where Tommy has now established himself, and shes still living with these things happening around her. I cannot imagine how she felt when Joel first lied to her in the car. Imagine, shes SO CLOSE to getting over this guilt and doing something for Riley and then BAM ITS OVER. She confronts Joel again and wants to make sure that this is true, because if it's not shes going to be devastated. Joel ruined Ellies chance of making things right in her eyes. It's as if Ellie thought this was her destiny (bit far fetched but this what I thought)

      Marlene stating that she wanted this, we don't know it. The recordings....honestly she sounded a bit insane to my liking when shes talking to Anna and stating she'll be with her soon....Bit crazy. But we will neve know. Ellie may (I think she would had) wanted to die if it meant making a cure. But I don't know, this is what I was thinking. And agian if I was Joel, I'd save her, no question in my mind. It's really sad how this finished. Such a lovely ending but sad. The writers are just fantastic. I myself thought that Ellie had accepted the lie because she has a father figure and someone she loves. But now I think she had the once chance to make things right, its vanished. 

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    • 114.76.71.52 wrote:

      ...I cannot imagine how she felt when Joel first lied to her in the car. Imagine, shes SO CLOSE to getting over this guilt and doing something for Riley and then BAM ITS OVER. She confronts Joel again and wants to make sure that this is true, because if it's not shes going to be devastated. Joel ruined Ellies chance of making things right in her eyes. It's as if Ellie thought this was her destiny (bit far fetched but this what I thought)

      Marlene stating that she wanted this, we don't know it. The recordings....honestly she sounded a bit insane to my liking when shes talking to Anna and stating she'll be with her soon....Bit crazy. But we will neve know. Ellie may (I think she would had) wanted to die if it meant making a cure. But I don't know, this is what I was thinking. And agian if I was Joel, I'd save her, no question in my mind. It's really sad how this finished. Such a lovely ending but sad. The writers are just fantastic. I myself thought that Ellie had accepted the lie because she has a father figure and someone she loves. But now I think she had the once chance to make things right, its vanished. 

      Great comment. All the people bringing up her talking about learning guitar and stuff as proof that she wouldn't have given herself up seem to forget that Ellie was completely unaware of everything that went on after she fell into the water. Just because she's not suicidal doesn't mean that she wouldn't have wanted to give herself over for a cure. One is just wanting to die just to die, the other is sacrificing yourself for "the good of humanity." Regardless of what the player feels about the effectiveness of a vaccine and everything, ELLIE herself was obviously highly invested in it for closure with Riley and for all the pain she went through in her journey with Joel to mean something, to amount to something. The fact that she was "the cure" kept her going on tat journey, whereas with Joel, his motivation became simply his love for Ellie, which is why he so quickly made the choice that he did.  But Ellie? I feel like if she were to be totally okay with what Joel did, we wouldn't have gotten the ending we got.

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    • My opinion is that Ellie didn't want to die, but she would have decided to sacrifice herself. I think that that was a crucial mistake that Marlene and the Fireflies made...  If they would have let Ellie wake up and would have explained the situaution to her, then i believe that she would have decided to sacrifice herself. She also would have talked to Joel, and even though Joel would be devastated (maybe even kill himself), he would probably let Ellie do what she thinks is right.

      Ellie is not ok with what Joel did...  But i think that Ellie needs time to sort things out and see if her love for Joel is stronger than her hate because he saved her.     "Save her"... poor choice of words, i know...

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    • If I am honest, it was slightly hard to believe that Joel and Ellie hadn't considered that Ellie being the cure would result in her dying.  I mean, did they just that Ellie could say 'ah', swab her cheek and, voila, the cure?  Regardless, they were naive and never saw it coming.  As for the ending and Ellie's "okay", of course she knows that Joel has lied to her.  She wouldn't be asking if she didin't know something was up.  And there really isn't a very satisfactory explanation for why she is still in a hospital gown when Joel is driving her away.  And why didn't Joel wait for her to say goodbye to Marlene.  Maybe have a shower?  Ellie is smart, way smart, and she knows that Joel has been lying to her.  She doesn't know exactly what did go down, but it clearly wasn't good. 

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    • HumanityWasn'tWorthSaving wrote:
      If I am honest, it was slightly hard to believe that Joel and Ellie hadn't considered that Ellie being the cure would result in her dying.  I mean, did they just that Ellie could say 'ah', swab her cheek and, voila, the cure?  Regardless, they were naive and never saw it coming.  As for the ending and Ellie's "okay", of course she knows that Joel has lied to her.  She wouldn't be asking if she didin't know something was up.  And there really isn't a very satisfactory explanation for why she is still in a hospital gown when Joel is driving her away.  And why didn't Joel wait for her to say goodbye to Marlene.  Maybe have a shower?  Ellie is smart, way smart, and she knows that Joel has been lying to her.  She doesn't know exactly what did go down, but it clearly wasn't good. 

      Well, Ellie and Joel really didn't understand why Ellie was immune. I don't think that any of them thought that Ellie had a cordyceps growth on her brain...        My guess is that they thought that the vaccine could be replicated with Ellies blood. So probaby the could have thought that the Fireflies would simply need a blood sample.   However, Neither Joel nor Ellie had any idea about what was going on...

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