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  • Klock101
    Klock101 closed this thread because:
    This thread has outlasted its usefulness.
    19:50, June 25, 2014

    I'm seriously getting tired of people making a big deal out of this kissing scene from the Left Behind DLC. Speaking as a gay teen girl, this was a beautiful, heartfelt moment not just in-game, but a moment of representation for those like me and others in the LGBTQA+ community. People who are still in denial that this was anything less than romantic or simply the by-product of a post-apocalyptic world need to grow up. It's been confirmed by Neil Druckmann, his co-workers and the animator of the scene himself that Ellie and Riley were in love with each other and that the kiss was romantic, and it doesn't get much more canon than that. Go ahead and argue if you'd like, but it doesn't change what's fact. A wonderful character like ellie being gay shouldn't change your opinion of her - unless you're a homophobic asshole, of course. End of story.

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    • You said it. It was such a tender and believable moment. Beautifully done.

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    • Japeezy121
      Japeezy121 removed this reply because:
      offensive to others
      00:22, February 22, 2014
      This reply has been removed
    • Well,I'm same as you,except I'm way tired listening to their crazy theories about Ellie is lesbian,bi,gay,or straight,I'm tired of that...I'm so tired about it.Let me just say that it was a friend kiss,.she was just her 'experimental game' thing....I dunno,I mean come on,what girls wanted to die without a kiss? I mean in the age of theirs,one of them must've wanted to try some things like that.

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    • First of all sorry for my bad English (I'am not a native speaker) Here is my take on this so called controversy. Regarding the relationship between Ellie and Riley-yes they are lesbians to each other. It is obvious from that whole kissing scene that they are romantically connected; it was kiss of deep affection and love, not a friendly kiss, there can be no further discussion (ND also confirmed that on last night's AMA Reddit) What could have happened afterwards is left to speculation: they could have become lovers, maybe they would never talk about it again and just remained firends. We don't know, because one way or another, guys-Riley inevitably dies, so it doesn't really matter. ND also confirmed last night that that if Riley was a boy, nothing would have changed: they would still develop their friendship, they would still kiss each other (and there would be no controversy to talk about). Which basically means Ellie doesn't gives a f*** about who se loves, as long as she can connect to that special someone. That is the beauty of her character: she doesn't differintiate, she just loves (no matter who she/he is). That was the whole point of this dlc-finding love in someone and not letting it go. Ellie found it and lost it; it was her turning point, in winter section she is a different girl, changed by the shopping mall experience, desperately trying to make it different with Joel. We know that she was lesbian in relationship to Riley, that doesn't mean she couldn't find love in male counterpart (or any other for that matter). We just don't know-maybe we will find one day, maybe not. So...are both sides happy now? Are you not entertained? :)

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    • "We know that she was lesbian in relationship to Riley, that doesn't mean she couldn't find love in male counterpart (or any other for that matter)."

      I'm sorry but no, if someone is a lesbian then they're a lesbian, they can't just automatically switch on/off "oh I love guys now". Are you kidding me?

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    • No, of course I'm not kidding you and I stand behind what i said. I've seen the kiss and to me it was a testament of true love (no, it definitely wasn't a friendship kiss, or heat of the moment kind of bullshit that people are trying to justify because they are in denial). It was a love kiss between the two people that were in love because of who they were, not what they were. Ellie made a connection with Riley because she would have done everything for her, even leave her dreams of becoming a Firefly. It wasn't about gender, it was about Riley herself. It wouldn't matter is she was a boy, the result would be the same. This whole DLC was about Ellie and Riley, their friendship, their love, not their sexual orientation. As Ashley Johnson said, it is about the connection you make with someone, not gander.

      This is why i made this reply. This is my point of view. I know you'll disagree and i'm okay with that. But you've asked and I replied.

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    • if they were boys there won't be a kiss because automatically without doubt they be gay if they did that... but when girls do it you get into a confusion haze girls usually are more affectionate, but girls are usaully flexible with their sexuality. Consider the following senario... just the two of them, surviving together, doing stuff together and they could only rely with each other. in real life put two woman in the same situation they can become romantically  attach even if they were straight... romatically attach through emotion because the hardship they experienced forge that bond. put two men in the same situation they don't become gay, they can become bestfriend but they won't sodomize each other just because they been through stuff.

      women emotional connection can lead to love....men or objective connection through brotherhood lust comes first before love but lust not through sex but through admiration of the physical traits thus a man can't fall for a man unless he is really gay or a closet gay.

      But if ellie was with a boy it would also be the same she be connected emotionally and thus making her straight. Women have flexible sexuality due to the fact that it is their nature...their biological chemistry is more emotional than men, subcontiously they love people that can defend them or rely on. they are more vulnerable to abuse now if they can find someone to fend for them even a woman they go for their protection and possible start a relationship that can last.

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    • Draksler82 wrote:
       It wasn't about gender, it was about Riley herself. It wouldn't matter is she was a boy, the result would be the same. This whole DLC was about Ellie and Riley, their friendship, their love, not their sexual orientation. As Ashley Johnson said, it is about the connection you make with someone, not gander.

      The thing is, things can be "about" more than one thing. In that moment, of course the point was to show that Ellie and Riley are just two people in love. But the implication that comes along with that is "by the way, Ellie is gay, no big deal, but there ya go." In the same way that when prince charming kisses the princess, theres the unspoken implication that yes, they're both straight. And just because you're a lesbian doesn't mean that you're only thinking about gender. They look for connections with people just like any other orientation of person does (I don't think you were implying that but it came across that way.)

      And this whole "if Riley were a boy, would it have happened?" thing is just really weird. Why are we talking about things that did not and cannot actually happen? Why are we talking hypothetical scenarios instead of what literally happened in front of us? I'm not going on the Beauty and the Beast message boards going "omg would Belle still have fallen in love with a female beast?" Because that's pointless and weird (leave that to the tumblr fangirls/boys lol.)

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    • MayonnEgg wrote:
      Draksler82 wrote:
       It wasn't about gender, it was about Riley herself. It wouldn't matter is she was a boy, the result would be the same. This whole DLC was about Ellie and Riley, their friendship, their love, not their sexual orientation. As Ashley Johnson said, it is about the connection you make with someone, not gander.
      The thing is, things can be "about" more than one thing. In that moment, of course the point was to show that Ellie and Riley are just two people in love. But the implication that comes along with that is "by the way, Ellie is gay, no big deal, but there ya go." In the same way that when prince charming kisses the princess, theres the unspoken implication that yes, they're both straight. And just because you're a lesbian doesn't mean that you're only thinking about gender. They look for connections with people just like any other orientation of person does (I don't think you were implying that but it came across that way.)

      And this whole "if Riley were a boy, would it have happened?" thing is just really weird. Why are we talking about things that did not and cannot actually happen? Why are we talking hypothetical scenarios instead of what literally happened in front of us? I'm not going on the Beauty and the Beast message boards going "omg would Belle still have fallen in love with a female beast?" Because that's pointless and weird (leave that to the tumblr fangirls/boys lol.)

      This is where you and i disagree. I've seen this scene and to me the subtext wasn't about her preferences, but about her connection with Riley. I was happy that she was happy and i honestly didn't care that she kissed a female (I was very happy that it wasn't tipical boy-girl kiss cliche, it doesn't suit Ellie). However i didn't make an assumption that she was suddenly into girls only, i only made an assumption that she and Riley were in love, because only their love was important to the story. That is how i interpret the source material, even if you disagree with me and my angle.

      Well i wasn't the one asking Bruce that question, don't be made at me. But i still think that it is an imporatant piece of information regardless, helping us shedd a new light on this whole thing.

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    • In the last scene ,,when Riley said,  "There are a million ways we should have died before today, and a million ways we can die before tomorrow. But we fight, for every second we get to spend with each other. Whether it's two minutes or two days, we don't give that up. I don't want to give that up. I vote: let's just wait it out. You know, we can be all poetic and just lose our minds together..."  / > When it shows Ellie helping Joel ,   while Riley says ,  "But we fight,for every second we get to spend with each other. Whether it's two minutes or two days, we don't give that up."   It's implied  that Ellie loved Joel  just  as much as she loved Riley, and was afraid she would be    left behind. 

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    • ^ I AGREE!!! :D

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    • Draksler82 wrote:
      However i didn't make an assumption that she was suddenly into girls only, i only made an assumption that she and Riley were in love, because only their love was important to the story. That is how i interpret the source material, even if you disagree with me and my angle.

      Well i wasn't the one asking Bruce that question, don't be made at me. But i still think that it is an imporatant piece of information regardless, helping us shedd a new light on this whole thing.

      Oh absolutely, that's a perfectly valid response, I didn't mean to say otherwise. I was more talking about how, in general, we're so quick to, often unconsciously, make the assumption that a character is straight (sometimes just automatically,) but all of a sudden when it's a character who is somehow not straight... That's when the whole "well, let's not make assumptions," conversation comes up. Why don't we extend that same level of openness all the time?

      And sorry, I didn't mean to say that you were the one asking Bruce that question. I was more just adding to my general point above. The only reason he was asked that question so many times is because these characters are not striaght. Nobody asks that question to people who write straight characters. Nobody asks the director of Beauty and the Beast "what if Belle were male?" They just accept it because it's the norm. 

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    • 67.185.234.48 wrote:
      "We know that she was lesbian in relationship to Riley, that doesn't mean she couldn't find love in male counterpart (or any other for that matter)."

      I'm sorry but no, if someone is a lesbian then they're a lesbian, they can't just automatically switch on/off "oh I love guys now". Are you kidding me?

      Yes they can and yes they have ,,,just ask Ellen  Lee DeGeneres or her  ex  wife !     Ellen DeGeneres dated men when she was younger ,  and  Anne Heche decided she did'nt want to be a lesbian and now she's with a man.    So  ya it can  and does happen ,,,,,Ellie  is  only 13  years old in left behind . 

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    • MayonnEgg wrote:
      Draksler82 wrote:
      However i didn't make an assumption that she was suddenly into girls only, i only made an assumption that she and Riley were in love, because only their love was important to the story. That is how i interpret the source material, even if you disagree with me and my angle.
      Well i wasn't the one asking Bruce that question, don't be made at me. But i still think that it is an imporatant piece of information regardless, helping us shedd a new light on this whole thing.
      Oh absolutely, that's a perfectly valid response, I didn't mean to say otherwise. I was more talking about how, in general, we're so quick to, often unconsciously, make the assumption that a character is straight (sometimes just automatically,) but all of a sudden when it's a character who is somehow not straight... That's when the whole "well, let's not make assumptions," conversation comes up. Why don't we extend that same level of openness all the time?

      And sorry, I didn't mean to say that you were the one asking Bruce that question. I was more just adding to my general point above. The only reason he was asked that question so many times is because these characters are not striaght. Nobody asks that question to people who write straight characters. Nobody asks the director of Beauty and the Beast "what if Belle were male?" They just accept it because it's the norm. 

      Good point, i totally agree. We make this assumptions automatically. We shouldn't, but we do. This DLC made a point with that by saying:"This is Ellie that you know, but what if there is more to her character? You know, look for other possibilities, make your own conclusions. But be open minded."

      And I like it, and i'am in no way trying to say:"Oh no she isn't lesbian. Nope, nope, nope!" Hell of course she could be! She could be bisexual, or any other form that is not gender-binary. Who knows? Who will ever know if there is never any new instalment?

      It's just that i've never even asked myself that question in the first place while i was playing it. For me, it was just a moment in Ellie's life that went by. Just like that. And after all this disscusions, it still is.

      What i like about that question with Bruce is that it was from bisexual player, not some dude that was like:"They won't take away my Ellie, i'm gonna show you, you'll see!" No, it was from one of the members of the LGBT community (she shares similar opinion as me) and she was just curious and open minded about it.

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    • Fanofwiki wrote:

      67.185.234.48 wrote:
      "We know that she was lesbian in relationship to Riley, that doesn't mean she couldn't find love in male counterpart (or any other for that matter)."

      I'm sorry but no, if someone is a lesbian then they're a lesbian, they can't just automatically switch on/off "oh I love guys now". Are you kidding me?

      Yes they can and yes they have ,,,just ask Ellen  Lee DeGeneres or her  ex  wife !     Ellen DeGeneres dated men when she was younger ,  and  Anne Heche decided she did'nt want to be a lesbian and now she's with a man.    So  ya it can  and does happen ,,,,,Ellie  is  only 13  years old in left behind . 

      You cannot change your sexuality, it's biological. And so what if Ellie is 13? I knew my sexuality when I was 12. I may not have admitted that I liked girls at the time but I knew the feelings I had around girls were waaay different then the feelings I had around boys.

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    • 67.185.234.48 wrote:

      Fanofwiki wrote:

      67.185.234.48 wrote:
      "We know that she was lesbian in relationship to Riley, that doesn't mean she couldn't find love in male counterpart (or any other for that matter)."

      I'm sorry but no, if someone is a lesbian then they're a lesbian, they can't just automatically switch on/off "oh I love guys now". Are you kidding me?

      Yes they can and yes they have ,,,just ask Ellen  Lee DeGeneres or her  ex  wife !     Ellen DeGeneres dated men when she was younger ,  and  Anne Heche decided she did'nt want to be a lesbian and now she's with a man.    So  ya it can  and does happen ,,,,,Ellie  is  only 13  years old in left behind . 

      You cannot change your sexuality, it's biological. And so what if Ellie is 13? I knew my sexuality when I was 12. I may not have admitted that I liked girls at the time but I knew the feelings I had around girls were waaay different then the feelings I had around boys.

      as valid as your opinion is, that is still your subjective experience. i know a lot of people that are bisexuals and they hate both heterosexual and homosexual community for labeling them as one of their mambers. i'm sorry, but when we sail this seas, there is no easy way around by just saying:"You are either hetero or homo, now choose sides and deal with it."

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    • 67.185.234.48 wrote:

      Fanofwiki wrote:


      67.185.234.48 wrote:
      "We know that she was lesbian in relationship to Riley, that doesn't mean she couldn't find love in male counterpart (or any other for that matter)."

      I'm sorry but no, if someone is a lesbian then they're a lesbian, they can't just automatically switch on/off "oh I love guys now". Are you kidding me?

      Yes they can and yes they have ,,,just ask Ellen  Lee DeGeneres or her  ex  wife !     Ellen DeGeneres dated men when she was younger ,  and  Anne Heche decided she did'nt want to be a lesbian and now she's with a man.    So  ya it can  and does happen ,,,,,Ellie  is  only 13  years old in left behind . 
      You cannot change your sexuality, it's biological. And so what if Ellie is 13? I knew my sexuality when I was 12. I may not have admitted that I liked girls at the time but I knew the feelings I had around girls were waaay different then the feelings I had around boys.

      Just because you know your sexuality when you were 12 doesn't mean that this still counts for other people...    For most 12 year olds, sexuality is not a big part of their life yet...

      If you think about it, 13 year old girls are alot more likely to socialise with other firls tan with boys...         By the way, I am in no way saying that Ellie is not gay, i am saying that Ellie loves Riley because of who she is.

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    • Draksler82 wrote:

      ...Who knows? Who will ever know if there is never any new instalment?

      It's just that i've never even asked myself that question in the first place while i was playing it. For me, it was just a moment in Ellie's life that went by. Just like that. And after all this disscusions, it still is.

      Oh absolutely. We'll all never really know about any character unless we literally see their entire life story told. I hope we can someday get to a point where everybody is like Bruce and all "who cares?" At the same time, I don't begrudge LGBT gamers celebrating the fact that they have a major, awesome character who they may be able to relate to on that level in a mainstream game.

      I think this is such a big discussion because 1) some people are uncomfortable with it (because Ellie is their "waifu" or otherwise...) and 2) Because we've never seen anything like this in gaming, hell, I can't remember any movie I've seen with such a sweet, genuine coming of age-type love story between two girls. It's exciting but people confront new things in different ways. Some people are resistant, some welcome it with open arms, and some are a bit inbetween.

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    • Gear3ful wrote:

      Just because you know your sexuality when you were 12 doesn't mean that this still counts for other people...    For most 12 year olds, sexuality is not a big part of their life yet...

      "Research on adolescents over the past 20 years shows that sexual orientation—a person’s emotional connection and attraction to another person— develops early. In fact, research shows that both gay and straight children have their first “crush “ or attraction to another person at around age 10." http://nccc.georgetown.edu/documents/LGBT_Brief.pdf

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    • MayonnEgg wrote:
      Draksler82 wrote:

      ...Who knows? Who will ever know if there is never any new instalment?

      It's just that i've never even asked myself that question in the first place while i was playing it. For me, it was just a moment in Ellie's life that went by. Just like that. And after all this disscusions, it still is.

      Oh absolutely. We'll all never really know about any character unless we literally see their entire life story told. I hope we can someday get to a point where everybody is like Bruce and all "who cares?" At the same time, I don't begrudge LGBT gamers celebrating the fact that they have a major, awesome character who they may be able to relate to on that level in a mainstream game.

      I think this is such a big discussion because 1) some people are uncomfortable with it (because Ellie is their "waifu" or otherwise...) and 2) Because we've never seen anything like this in gaming, hell, I can't remember any movie I've seen with such a sweet, genuine coming of age-type love story between two girls. It's exciting but people confront new things in different ways. Some people are resistant, some welcome it with open arms, and some are a bit inbetween.

      Well amen to that. I would add number 3) it felt so real. i mean look at that animation, expressions, small details-i mean holly smokers! we've seen a lot of kissing in mass effect and heavy rain-but it was allways like-meh, pixels and sh**. but this...this raises the bar, and it ain't even next gen.

      Oh and that is some interesting piece of information right there, though i would place that bar even lower

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    • 67.185.234.48 wrote:

      Fanofwiki wrote:


      67.185.234.48 wrote:
      "We know that she was lesbian in relationship to Riley, that doesn't mean she couldn't find love in male counterpart (or any other for that matter)."

      I'm sorry but no, if someone is a lesbian then they're a lesbian, they can't just automatically switch on/off "oh I love guys now". Are you kidding me?

      Yes they can and yes they have ,,,just ask Ellen  Lee DeGeneres or her  ex  wife !     Ellen DeGeneres dated men when she was younger ,  and  Anne Heche decided she did'nt want to be a lesbian and now she's with a man.    So  ya it can  and does happen ,,,,,Ellie  is  only 13  years old in left behind . 
      You cannot change your sexuality, it's biological. And so what if Ellie is 13? I knew my sexuality when I was 12. I may not have admitted that I liked girls at the time but I knew the feelings I had around girls were waaay different then the feelings I had around boys.

      YES  you can ! ,,,(there's nothing wrong with being gay) ,,,but the  fact  is, that millions of people have had   "fun"  with a close   same  sex friend ,,and then end up prefering the opposite sex .

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    • Yes they can and yes they have ,,,just ask Ellen  Lee DeGeneres or her  ex  wife !     Ellen DeGeneres dated men when she was younger ,  and  Anne Heche decided she did'nt want to be a lesbian and now she's with a man.    So  ya it can  and does happen ,,,,,Ellie  is  only 13  years old in left behind .,,,,,,, 

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    • MayonnEgg wrote:
      Gear3ful wrote:

      Just because you know your sexuality when you were 12 doesn't mean that this still counts for other people...    For most 12 year olds, sexuality is not a big part of their life yet...

      "Research on adolescents over the past 20 years shows that sexual orientation—a person’s emotional connection and attraction to another person— develops early. In fact, research shows that both gay and straight children have their first “crush “ or attraction to another person at around age 10."

      http://nccc.georgetown.edu/documents/LGBT_Brief.pdf

      Thank you for that.   I didn't know that.

      However, i still believe that Ellie is probably bisexual (non preffering of any gender)...

      For everyone who still doesn't believe it, Neil Druckmann said that he wrote Left Behind with the though that Ellie is attracted to Riley.

      Don't call me a homophobe, but if i had a 12 year old son and he would tell me that he is gay, i wouldn't quite take that for a fact. Simply because I belive that at a such early age, kids don't know what they are feeling...     Even though you more or less have proof that it is otherwise. Call me ignorant, or whatever you want...

      But just to be fair, Ellie has always been very mature for her age.

      You may arugue that Neil Druckmann said that Ellie's is attracted to Riley. He also said that Ellie's and Riley's relationship is a sexual one (he used the word gay). But i don't think that that rules out the possibility of Ellie not caring about gender.

      I think that Ellie is bisexual (doesn't care about someone's gender). Probably nobody will convince me otherwise.

      PS: I am in no way trying to say what I said because in order to create a possibility of Ellie being straight, and I know that some people sexualize Ellie and do not accept Ellie's sexual orientation because of that reason.    The Last Of Us made me feel fatherly feelings for Ellie (despite a rather young age   (18) ) and so I despise any kind of sexualisation of her character. 

      I simply believe Ellie doesn'r care about gender, and that is also one of the reasons why I love her character.

      PPS: Sorry for repeating myself over and over again.

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    • Gear3ful wrote:

      I simply believe Ellie doesn'r care about gender, and that is also one of the reasons why I love her character.

      PPS: Sorry for repeating myself over and over again.

      Oh yeah, that's perfectly fine! Just pointing out that the science says that, as far as 12 year olds being "too young" to know these things about themselves, it isn't true.  

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    • MayonnEgg wrote:
      Gear3ful wrote:

      Just because you know your sexuality when you were 12 doesn't mean that this still counts for other people...    For most 12 year olds, sexuality is not a big part of their life yet...

      "Research on adolescents over the past 20 years shows that sexual orientation—a person’s emotional connection and attraction to another person— develops early. In fact, research shows that both gay and straight children have their first “crush “ or attraction to another person at around age 10."

      http://nccc.georgetown.edu/documents/LGBT_Brief.pdf

      Sorry,, but this so  called  research is biased ,,,

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    • No doubt  , for  some people , sexual preferance    is   determined at birth ,,
      LeftBehindNews
      ,but for the  vast  majority, sexual  preferance    is  determined by life experience  . 
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    • Sam and Ellie.
      When I have more time,   I  will   be more  indepth on this subject .  ^
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    • Sam and Ellie.
      .
      Sam and Ellie
      SamHead
      Ellieav
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    • Well,I got to admit it was  a little heavy to understand that she's not straight.It was when I realized at the first time she kissed Riley,I mean I've been thinking about this except this is before ND confirmed that Ellie was not straight. I was thinking that time,she was almost that close to kiss her,she was right there,right? Why can't she just hug her or something like that except kissing?

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    • 180.253.10.251 wrote:
      Well,I got to admit it was  a little heavy to understand that she's not straight.It was when I realized at the first time she kissed Riley,I mean I've been thinking about this except this is before ND confirmed that Ellie was not straight. I was thinking that time,she was almost that close to kiss her,she was right there,right? Why can't she just hug her or something like that except kissing?

      What if think people need to understand is that this kiss wasn't just thrown in to please gay community. Riley was introduced in tlou as Ellie's female friend and that was everything that we knew about her up until LB. They were presented as friends both in tlou and american dreams. But in TLOU:LB we have a story about Ellie trying to rescue Joel and the stakes are high-Ellie needed greater motivation, more reason to fight. She drew her strenght from the flashbacks when she and Riley were together. But then the devs came up with this idea: what if Ellie was fighting so hard because she didn't want to lose another pearson that was dear to her, because she already lost one? One that was more to her than just a friend?

      So they had to change their relationship to make it deeper, more poignant. And they did, but not because Riley was a female, but because she was the only one close enough to Ellie that her death would really have an effect on LB's winter section. As Bruce Straley said: She (Riley) only happened to be a girl in american dreams. They would still go on with a love story, Riley's gender was irrelevant. Or to put it differently: Ellie apparently being gay was a by-product of a bigger love story, not the other way around. There was no secret pro-homosexual agenda behind it-it was just a love story that happened to have two female protagonists. I mean seriously, what should they do? Rewrite Riley as a male just to tell a love story? I don't think so.

      To end my way-too-long-post; there is something else i wanted to say. I fear that this is the end for Ellie's character. Why? Let's say there is a tlou 2 with older Ellie; she is all grown up back there in jackson (or somewhere else), meeting new people, making new relationships... What are creators going to do?  If they say:" Let's go even further on with this idea about Ellie being gay." than a lot of people will say:"Well, you are pushing this lesbian agenda  way too far." But if they say:"We are going to tell a significant love story, no matter the gender." and if they introduce Ellie's male interest, than the LGBT community will say:"You are hypocrites ND. You've already established she is gay, why are you taking this character away from us?"

      You see where i'am going? Anyway; this whole DLC seemed to me like a swan song, a closure for this characters. Is that good? Am I wrong? We'll see about that in like...4 years, i guess?

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    • ^ WOW, you make some really good points there! :)

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    • 149.126.139.246 wrote:
      180.253.10.251 wrote:
      Well,I got to admit it was  a little heavy to understand that she's not straight.It was when I realized at the first time she kissed Riley,I mean I've been thinking about this except this is before ND confirmed that Ellie was not straight. I was thinking that time,she was almost that close to kiss her,she was right there,right? Why can't she just hug her or something like that except kissing?
      What if think people need to understand is that this kiss wasn't just thrown in to please gay community. Riley was introduced in tlou as Ellie's female friend and that was everything that we knew about her up until LB. They were presented as friends both in tlou and american dreams. But in TLOU:LB we have a story about Ellie trying to rescue Joel and the stakes are high-Ellie needed greater motivation, more reason to fight. She drew her strenght from the flashbacks when she and Riley were together. But then the devs came up with this idea: what if Ellie was fighting so hard because she didn't want to lose another pearson that was dear to her, because she already lost one? One that was more to her than just a friend?

      So they had to change their relationship to make it deeper, more poignant. And they did, but not because Riley was a female, but because she was the only one close enough to Ellie that her death would really have an effect on LB's winter section. As Bruce Straley said: She (Riley) only happened to be a girl in american dreams. They would still go on with a love story, Riley's gender was irrelevant. Or to put it differently: Ellie apparently being gay was a by-product of a bigger love story, not the other way around. There was no secret pro-homosexual agenda behind it-it was just a love story that happened to have two female protagonists. I mean seriously, what should they do? Rewrite Riley as a male just to tell a love story? I don't think so.

      To end my way-too-long-post; there is something else i wanted to say. I fear that this is the end for Ellie's character. Why? Let's say there is a tlou 2 with older Ellie; she is all grown up back there in jackson (or somewhere else), meeting new people, making new relationships... What are creators going to do?  If they say:" Let's go even further on with this idea about Ellie being gay." than a lot of people will say:"Well, you are pushing this lesbian agenda  way too far." But if they say:"We are going to tell a significant love story, no matter the gender." and if they introduce Ellie's male interest, than the LGBT community will say:"You are hypocrites ND. You've already established she is gay, why are you taking this character away from us?"

      You see where i'am going? Anyway; this whole DLC seemed to me like a swan song, a closure for this characters. Is that good? Am I wrong? We'll see about that in like...4 years, i guess?

      So if Ellie's sexual orientation is a by-product of Riley simply being female because the story had been tweeked a bit to match the magnitude of the love between Joel and Ellie, then how can we definitively say Ellie is gay or straight? You know what I mean? I'm agreeing with you; I'm just developing this idea that putting a label on Ellie being gay or straight is pointless because the kiss didn't represent either of those things nor was its goal. A romantic love and family/emotional love is not the same. Ellie wasn't sexually attracted to Joel. And thus I don't believe Ellie was sexually attracted to RIley if what you said is true (that the game developers tweeked Left Behind a bit to match the emotions evoked from TLOU). And it makes sense. In fact a friendship is closer to being a family member than a romantic partner is to being a family member. And we know the theme in the TLOU was centered on family love, not romantic/sexual love. 

      You made an interesting point. That's why I don't see Ellie as being gay or straight just from that kiss. It wasn't definitive of sexual orientation. I'm not against Ellie being gay I'm just saying how can we really say Ellie is one way or the other when.. THAT WASN'T THE POINT OF THE KISS. THE KISS WASN'T MEANT TO REVEAL ANYTHING. It was a turning point in Left Behind not because OMG ELLIE IS GAY!? No, it was a turning point of the game because we see how much Ellie loves RIley IN GENERAL regard-less of gender/sexual preference/sexual orientation because it's completely irrelevant and I don't think the kiss was supposed to reveal anything that complicated. Riley and Ellie are just blobs conveying a universal symbol of affection expressed across all facets of love - a kiss. But we have to put a face on these blobs and they happen to be women. But retain the idea that we were only supposed to walk away from the scene knowing the two blobs loved each other. See what I'm getting at? The love wasn't supposed to be representative of sexual orientation. The two blobs could have been sisters, mother and daughter, lovers, friends anything. But that wasn't the point of them sharing a kiss.

      I think placing a sexual orientation to the kiss undervalues the simplicity of what the kiss was supposed to represent. Obviously in Disney movies there are gender roles and the princess wants to marry the handsome prince, but looks and gender aren't important to Ellie and Riley and their kiss doesn't represent them becoming an item like a kiss would in a Disney movie. It was just a representation of their bond as two people that share some kind of label-less love. I think we stereotype kissing to just be between lovers when that's not true. If Riley was a boy? We'd think they were lovers. If Riley is a girl? We think they are lovers. But I don't think the point of the kiss was to reveal that they were lovers of any kind. 

      Ellie's character is so ambiguous, honestly I can't see her with men or women. So the directors wouldn't be smart to make a sequel where she had a romantic relationship with anyone. It seems lame to have her paired up romantically with anyone. Romantic relationships (as much as I love them) are too cliche to be represented in an apocalyptic-type world. Just like in The Walking Dead, romance is barely mentioned. The strongest bond is friendship and family. And that's what The Last of Us/Left Behind was trying to evoke from its audience. I don't think there would be any closure for any of the characters. The directors don't need to make Ellie pair up with anyone because a romantic interaction isn't a theme in TLOU just as it wasn't in Left Behind. 

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    • ^ Nice message     Kudos for you :)

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    • Winterlotus90 wrote:

      ....Ellie wasn't sexually attracted to Joel. And thus I don't believe Ellie was sexually attracted to RIley if what you said is true (that the game developers tweeked Left Behind a bit to match the emotions evoked from TLOU). And it makes sense. In fact a friendship is closer to being a family member than a romantic partner is to being a family member. And we know the theme in the TLOU was centered on family love, not romantic/sexual love. 



      Ellie's character is so ambiguous, honestly I can't see her with men or women. So the directors wouldn't be smart to make a sequel where she had a romantic relationship with anyone. It seems lame to have her paired up romantically with anyone. Romantic relationships (as much as I love them) are too cliche to be represented in an apocalyptic-type world. Just like in The Walking Dead, romance is barely mentioned. The strongest bond is friendship and family. And that's what The Last of Us/Left Behind was trying to evoke from its audience. I don't think there would be any closure for any of the characters. The directors don't need to make Ellie pair up with anyone because a romantic interaction isn't a theme in TLOU just as it wasn't in Left Behind. 

      I think you're misunderstanding a bit. The creators hadn't even thought about her orientation or anything in the main campaign because it wasn't relevant, but with Left Behind, they felt that Ellie and Riley just being friends was not weighty enough emotionally, so they decided to tell a love story. Riley just happened to already be established as a female character, so there we go. They specifically wanted to do something a little different from the main campaign, and to let you see a different side of Ellie. 

      I feel like it's kind of odd to expect Ellie to just live out the rest of her days alone... I mean, romance, intimacy, they're all fundamental parts of the human experience. I don't feel like it would cheapen her character or anything to allow her some level of happiness with a partner. I mean, if you really build a life with someone, they become your family, they're the family you choose. You can be married to your best friend, and they become your family. Familial and romantic love aren't necessarily mutually exclusive concepts.

      And I dunno if Walking Dead is a good example to prove your point... In this season alone, a major story arc was Glenn and Maggie miraculously being reunited with the power of true love and all that. Plus Sasha and Bob. 

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    • @Wintertlous92, I agree with you about the sequel shouldn't focus on Ellie's love life. Plus she can now pass her infection to other people, right?

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    • MayonnEgg wrote:
      Winterlotus90 wrote:

      ....Ellie wasn't sexually attracted to Joel. And thus I don't believe Ellie was sexually attracted to RIley if what you said is true (that the game developers tweeked Left Behind a bit to match the emotions evoked from TLOU). And it makes sense. In fact a friendship is closer to being a family member than a romantic partner is to being a family member. And we know the theme in the TLOU was centered on family love, not romantic/sexual love. 



      Ellie's character is so ambiguous, honestly I can't see her with men or women. So the directors wouldn't be smart to make a sequel where she had a romantic relationship with anyone. It seems lame to have her paired up romantically with anyone. Romantic relationships (as much as I love them) are too cliche to be represented in an apocalyptic-type world. Just like in The Walking Dead, romance is barely mentioned. The strongest bond is friendship and family. And that's what The Last of Us/Left Behind was trying to evoke from its audience. I don't think there would be any closure for any of the characters. The directors don't need to make Ellie pair up with anyone because a romantic interaction isn't a theme in TLOU just as it wasn't in Left Behind. 

      I think you're misunderstanding a bit. The creators hadn't even thought about her orientation or anything in the main campaign because it wasn't relevant, but with Left Behind, they felt that Ellie and Riley just being friends was not weighty enough emotionally, so they decided to tell a love story. Riley just happened to already be established as a female character, so there we go. They specifically wanted to do something a little different from the main campaign, and to let you see a different side of Ellie. 

      I feel like it's kind of odd to expect Ellie to just live out the rest of her days alone... I mean, romance, intimacy, they're all fundamental parts of the human experience. I don't feel like it would cheapen her character or anything to allow her some level of happiness with a partner. I mean, if you really build a life with someone, they become your family, they're the family you choose. You can be married to your best friend, and they become your family. Familial and romantic love aren't necessarily mutually exclusive concepts.

      And I dunno if Walking Dead is a good example to prove your point... In this season alone, a major story arc was Glenn and Maggie miraculously being reunited with the power of true love and all that. Plus Sasha and Bob. 

      What did I misunderstand? I'm confused. I know the creators didn't think of Ellie's orientation when making the campaign. It was an afterthought. It was a product of the campaign because they wanted the emotions evoked from TLOU to equal that of Left Behind. I think it's a shame that they couldn't tell the story well enough without making it a love story. I thought it was beautiful with them being just friends. That's what I thought they were. That's what I was expecting in Left Behind and TO ME making it a romantic story is cliche and it let me down slightly. I knew from the moment Ellie revealed that she felt guilty that her best friend died that they were so close that they were like sisters, like family. And that was enough emotional weight to me. I don't know. The kiss to me made me feel like two sisters were kissing and it felt out of place. 


      Yes I know romance and relationship is fundamental to human nature. She's just so young that any relationship at her age is juvenile. I'm just saying that in TWD, romance isn't a major theme. And it isn't in TLOU either. 

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    • I'm sure I saw  a video on youtube where Neil Druckmann or Bruce Straley said that the Left behind dlc was originally about how Ellie saved Joel after he fell off the horse, but they realized it would be to short, so they added the sections that show Ellie and Riley in the mall ,  as an after thought. 

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    • @Fanofwiki,I really agree with what you've said.It's true that it would be too short to only see how she rescued him so that he created another story that could be input into the game itself and that it is Riley and Ellie's advanture in Ellie's memories and that I believe it was the thing that makes the DLC so dramatic and awesome either.Heavy to finally accept who she is,but I guess that's the second thing that makes the DLC dramatic too,that's the thing that makes their friendship had many feelings in it to the players.

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    • I'm just a little confused as to why they made Ellie gay/bisexual when we already touched on that topic in the main campaign. Sure it's something new to learn about Ellie, but I thought it was overkill. I really wished they had just made them friends, like really good sisters that depended on each other. That's what I thought they were. That's not something talked about in games. And initially I honestly felt like it was some perverted way for the creators to take away Ellie's innocence and to cover it up by saying "it's an innocent kiss but they do love each other like that." I know how men think! And part of me felt like it was cliche to make them attracted to each other, because men apparently get off on that kind of thing and fantasize about it. Like I came to respect TLOU because it delved on topics that are sensitive. And I felt like by having them kiss (while not sexual and raunchy) was still borderline to me. I'm a little bitter about it too because I didn't want romance in the story and it felt out of place to make them attracted to each other. And I'm bitter too since the topic was already discussed in the main campaign. There's just a lot of things that made me wary of including this segment into the story. I've had best friends and my heart broke when I had to move away from them. The relationship is so special without having to add in sexuality. I'm attracted to my best friends, every one is. We think they look nice, we are attached to them emotionally, etc. But what makes friendships sweet is that sexuality doesn't get in the way and that was a let down for me seeing them be more than friends in the DLC (if that's in fact what they were). That's partially why I feel like the kiss can be ambiguous because we can see it at one end of the spectrum and say that Ellie is definitively gay/bisexual, or we can go down the other way and say that Riley was her first friend and the kiss was merely Ellie's first time revealing to anyone that she loved and cared for them, and it so happened to be a kiss.

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    • Fanofwiki wrote:
      I'm sure I saw  a video on youtube where Neil Druckmann or Bruce Straley said that the Left behind dlc was originally about how Ellie saved Joel after he fell off the horse, but they realized it would be to short, so they added the sections that show Ellie and Riley in the mall ,  as an after thought. 

      It was the other way around, actually. I mean, the whole comic was basically a prequel to Left Behind.

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    • See I was confused at first. I thought American Dreams WAS Left Behind. But after reading the comics it obviously wasn't like that. 

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    • It's kind of confusing though, like in the arcade. In the comic book, it was the first time Riley mentioned her favorite video game to Ellie. And the same thing happened in Left Behind. Like if the comics were a prequel to Left Behind, then why did Riley explain that video game twice to Ellie as if it was her first time hearing about it? 

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    • Winterlotus90 wrote:
      It's kind of confusing though, like in the arcade. In the comic book, it was the first time Riley mentioned her favorite video game to Ellie. And the same thing happened in Left Behind. Like if the comics were a prequel to Left Behind, then why did Riley explain that video game twice to Ellie as if it was her first time hearing about it? 

      Well, in the comic, they find a busted machine, and in Left Behind, Ellie finds another one, hoping it would work this time, but it turns out to be busted again. Riley then helps frustrated Ellie to finally "play," it in that scene. I don't think it's a continuity error or anything. Ellie was drawn to the machine in LB because of what Riley had told her about it in the comic (plus, they had turned on the electricity in LB, whereas they hadn't in the comic.)

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    • Klock101
      Klock101 removed this reply because:
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      13:25, April 6, 2014
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    • Well if creators said that she is gay than i guess she is gay. So goodbye those theories about friendship kiss, bicurious incident, girls experimenting (altough all those suggestions are valid and real life because some girls experience them all the time) or bi/pan options. If Neil said she only likes girls, then she only likes girls. Heck, even Ellie's page on TLOU Wiki says that she is gay! Developers didn't make 180 turn and totally changed her character, they only added something that we didn't now, TLOU  was pretty much tabula rasa regarding her sexual orientation so they had some solid fundations to explore that part of her in LB. 

      Altough i need to admit that i had a hard time coming to terms with this idea. First; I never thought about Ellie's orientation to be same as Bill's. I mean Bill is clearly gay, he had gay magasines and i think no one would argue that he is only interested in men. With Ellie...i dunno...i just have a hard time imagine her walking around Tommy's village, looking for her next girl or having lesbian magasines. And to just find someone of the same gender that loves you (in sexual way) in this post apocalyptic world when 60% of world's population is gone...that seems like a long shot.

      And even altough Sam and Ellie were only friends (well Sam was probably having a crush on her), i never ruled out a possibility that they could have become something more, given time. Replaying LB unfortunately didn't change this view as much as i wanted it to. Plus i never got that that feeling that Ellie was looking at that poster with skinny girl in TLOU anyway differenty than she would if she was straight. And i also never got a feeling that she killed David's men in main campaign easier, because she has no feeling for males, or (like some put it) because she doesn't loves them.

      Now this well sound very homophobic of me, and i'am sorry for that and apologise but  in real life i have a lot of gay/lesbian friends. I could spot someone is homosexual from a mile away (the way they interact, behave, sometimes even dress). But with Ellie i just don't get that vibe. She is just so not that stereotypical gay character that we see in media these days, and maybe she was even written that way. But if there was no controversial kiss, i would have never know.

      I admit that i was one of those that hoped she would start a family, have her own biological children to spread her immunity. So that her "gift" wasn't just a giant waste. Well...that went out of the window. 

      Even when i was playing LB i thought that Ellie kissing Riley was something natural because to her, Riley was the only person that ever cared about her. I mean she stole those water guns form general Dickhead (or from somewhere/someone else), traversed entire town full of soldiers and gave up her dreams of becoming a Firefly just to be with Ellie. I'll go on a limb here: i am  straight male that loves girls VERY much, but if i grew up in their world, with no family, no special love or care, little to no friends and then met some boy that would do all those things for me that Riley did for Ellie...well shit i would have probably kissed him as well. But that is just me. 

      BUT Druckmann already confirmed that she and Riley are gay, so all my previous statements are invalid. She is gay, and we all have to deal with it.

      As for the future; even if they make Ellie reappear in TLOU 2 (if there is a TLOU 2), they will never make her to be in a relationship, because they think that is unimportant. They will never make so that Ellie would have a boyfriend because they said that she is gay + making her having a male partner would feel like something of a fan service, not a real life thing. In the end all we can do is to accept that she is gay. Like we need to accept star wars prequel trilogy or matrix 2 or 3. that's just the way it is.

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    • MayonnEgg wrote:
      Winterlotus90 wrote:
      It's kind of confusing though, like in the arcade. In the comic book, it was the first time Riley mentioned her favorite video game to Ellie. And the same thing happened in Left Behind. Like if the comics were a prequel to Left Behind, then why did Riley explain that video game twice to Ellie as if it was her first time hearing about it? 
      Well, in the comic, they find a busted machine, and in Left Behind, Ellie finds another one, hoping it would work this time, but it turns out to be busted again. Riley then helps frustrated Ellie to finally "play," it in that scene. I don't think it's a continuity error or anything. Ellie was drawn to the machine in LB because of what Riley had told her about it in the comic (plus, they had turned on the electricity in LB, whereas they hadn't in the comic.)

      Hm.. Well it's interesting too because in the comic in the arcade there are a bunch of dead bodies laying everywhere. And when we go back to it in LB there are no bodies. Also, in the comic book Ellie's like "oh arcade cool!" and then in LB she's like "Oh, arcade! cool!" Idk, that's why I asked cause it felt like a continuity error reading it after I played the dlc. 

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    • Winterlotus90 wrote:
      MayonnEgg wrote:
      Winterlotus90 wrote:
      It's kind of confusing though, like in the arcade. In the comic book, it was the first time Riley mentioned her favorite video game to Ellie. And the same thing happened in Left Behind. Like if the comics were a prequel to Left Behind, then why did Riley explain that video game twice to Ellie as if it was her first time hearing about it? 
      Well, in the comic, they find a busted machine, and in Left Behind, Ellie finds another one, hoping it would work this time, but it turns out to be busted again. Riley then helps frustrated Ellie to finally "play," it in that scene. I don't think it's a continuity error or anything. Ellie was drawn to the machine in LB because of what Riley had told her about it in the comic (plus, they had turned on the electricity in LB, whereas they hadn't in the comic.)
      Hm.. Well it's interesting too because in the comic in the arcade there are a bunch of dead bodies laying everywhere. And when we go back to it in LB there are no bodies. Also, in the comic book Ellie's like "oh arcade cool!" and then in LB she's like "Oh, arcade! cool!" Idk, that's why I asked cause it felt like a continuity error reading it after I played the dlc. 

      It's not a big deal really, just something I noticed. 

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    • Winterlotus90 wrote:

      Hm.. Well it's interesting too because in the comic in the arcade there are a bunch of dead bodies laying everywhere. And when we go back to it in LB there are no bodies. Also, in the comic book Ellie's like "oh arcade cool!" and then in LB she's like "Oh, arcade! cool!" Idk, that's why I asked cause it felt like a continuity error reading it after I played the dlc. 

      It's because they had been able to turn the electricity on for the first time. So finally, Ellie was able to actually play some of the games. But, the Angel Knives machine was busted, so even though it was on, she couldn't play it.

      As for the bodies, pretty sure that was part of her imagination in that scene in the comic, since the room is still a different color than the rest of the mall (so, she's imagining what happened in there.) There's no bodies in the background when they're walking in the arcade in the comic either. 

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    • Being gay or lesbian is a choice.

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    • It is a choice,I guess.Actually,based on the environment they're living in and the habbit they have.People said that kind of thing it was influenced by what I've just said,Im not saying it true,but I believe that's the only answer I got for now for these two survivors' relationship.

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