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  • Hi Snivystorm,

    The edits to both Bill's wiki page and W Earl Brown's wiki page were made in order to replace dehumanizing and degrading language regarding Bill's sexuality and his relationship to Frank. Homosexual/homosexuality is outdated terminology. Homosexual is not a technical or colloquial term - it’s a slur. Ellie’s wiki page correctly states that she is a lesbian without any dehumanizing language surrounding the topic, so I don’t understand the problem. I would appreciate it if the changes made to both Bill and Brown’s wiki pages were left.

    Thanks.

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    • Hey there ^_^

      I am unsure what you mean by "email" for I did not email you at all. I left a note on why I reverted the edits in the edit summaries but I did not email you directly (I don't even know your email)

      Second, where I'm from, homosexual is the technical term for someone who is attracted to someone of the same sex (which Bill is). Where I'm from "gay" can be interpreted as a derogatory term (insinuating ridicule and stupidity), much like other unfavorable terms such as "fag" etc, hence why "homosexual" was the word provided on the page. Furthermore, the word "gay" is also synonymous with "glee" and "happy" (a trait associated with homosexuals) so saying "homosexual" better clarifies the point being made.

      If there is some official statement made by US law which I am not aware stating what I believe is incorrect, please provide proof of it for me to clarify. If you can, the terms can stay in the reverse.

      Thanks!

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    • Sorry. I got two emails this morning with your editing notes and thought the were directly to me. I’m new to this, so that was my mistake. Nevertheless, I still saw that you changed the wikis back and I needed to explain to you why I edited them in the first place.

      I don’t care where you live or why you honestly think gay is a slur and homosexual is not but I’m not being paid to educate you and I shouldn’t have to provide evidence for you to have some empathy. That’s just an excuse for you to not listen to me. I literally have no idea what conclusion you’re trying to make by using slurs and nothing you’ve said excuses the use of them. I told you it was dehumanizing and degrading because it is and that’s from personal experience. I think it’s extremely unfair that you changed the wikis back despite me explaining this to you.

      Both wiki articles refer to Bill’s sexuality in a hurtful and degrading way and also patronize his relationship with Frank. It’s rude that, despite my efforts to explain this, you still changed it back.

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    • Ahh I see, you must have the email notification enabled on your account.

      The reason I asked for proof is because we need to find common ground on this issue. Without proof, constant edit wars can occur with constant reverting on the article which is simply a hassle and is unproductive for the wiki.

      If you like, you can open a discussion at the forums or on Bill's talk page to see what the community feels is the most appropriate term to use on the page although to change it on Bill's will mean such must then apply to all articles.

      Should the community predominantly side with your perspective on the wording then we will apply it as appropriate. If not, the wording will remain as is.

      Thanks!

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    • ​​​​​My original point was Ellie’s page is accurate, so I don’t understand your reasoning, and that still stands. There aren’t edit wars on that page and no one insists on changing “lesbian” to “homosexual” because there isn’t enough proof that lesbian is the correct term. Even if homosexual weren’t a term historically used against gay people to dehumanize same-gender attraction, the correct term for Bill’s identity is still gay whether anyone wants it to be or not. Homosexual may be a scientific term but human beings aren’t science projects. It is absolutely productive for the wiki to use the correct terms and be respectful.

      I don’t feel like I need to talk to the community since this isn’t a community-wide issue; a few minor edits to change a few sentences and to use respectful language isn’t too much to ask. My improvements to the article were reverted by you, not by other users. Again, no one has a problem with Ellie’s wiki being accurate and respectful of her identity. Gay is not a slur, and it isn’t the community’s fault that you’re from somewhere where it is used like one. I’m not asking for permission, I’m telling you this needs to be changed. I’ll improve the article and you can put your name on it if you want, if that’s the problem, but it needs to be edited regardless.

      I’m sorry but there isn’t a common ground with this — you’re either respectful or you’re not.

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    • As I said, it is best to let the community decide rather than dictate your personal view on the wiki. As you refused to do soand continued to assert your will without the community's input, I've went ahead and notified two other community members to discuss this issue with us.

      Acting as a dictator is inappropriate on any wikia. It is respectful to allow the community to decide what is best rather than rely on one person's (even your own) input.

      As previously stated, should the community side with you, then the terms you've added will remain. Until then, it's best to not edit war.

      Thank you again.

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    • I don’t understand how making edits to improve everyone’s experience on FANDOM Wiki is acting like a dictator. The website allows everyone to make edits to any wiki page to improve FANDOM Wiki for everyone to enjoy. I’m not making this an edit war—you are. The community doesn’t need to decide on a few minor edits to correct inappropriate language. I edited a few words and corrected a few sentences to improve two wiki articles; I haven’t done anything that violates the terms of use. I even brought the issues directly to you and explained my reasons. The language used on Bill’s wiki and W. Earl Brown’s wiki is hurtful, dehumanizing and regressive. By reverting every edit to Bill or Brown’s page, you’re insisting on keeping that degrading language and silencing anyone who tries to change it. Again, just because you’re from somewhere where gay is a slur doesn’t mean that every other fan is. I would appreciate it if you kept the improvements and allowed for the articles to use correct and respectful terms.


      I’ll gladly explain to the other admin’s what I’ve explained to you.

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    • Ioverheardthis wrote: I haven’t done anything that violates the terms of use.

      I never said you did.

      Again, just because you’re from somewhere where gay is a slur doesn’t mean that every other fan is.

      Hence why we need the community to decide a general consensus to decide which term is best to use rather than incidents like this occurring again in the future as we will then have an official "rule" if you will regarding the wording.

      Wikias are a community, like I said, so rather than us two spend all day discussing this issue, we allow the community to decide as a whole, thereby avoiding either one of us acting dictatorial. I gave you the opportunity to open a discussion for it (which you still can).

      I'm not making this an edit war - you are.

      Edit wars are never just one person - there are always at least two editors involved, one changing something and another changing it back.

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    • To be perfectly honest, I don't see what the issue is here. "Gay/lesbian" is, to me at least, a more specific version of "homosexual". While they all can be used with hurtful intent, that depends on individual perceptions.

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    • Please don’t just dismiss my issue because you don’t see the problem; Bill is an extremely important character to both fans and the video game industry and being upset over the use of degrading language in his wiki article is a valid response. It’s insensitive and irresponsible to use such an outdated and harmful term for his sexuality and still reject any change.
      I hope you guys can do better in the future.

      Thanks.

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    • Ioverheardthis wrote:

      It’s insensitive and irresponsible to use such an outdated...term

      Can you please elaborate how the word "homosexual" is outdated?

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    • If you still feel that bothered by our word choice here, you can contact Staff via Special:Contact/content-issue

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    • Offensive words cannot always have solid documentation of being used as a slur like an actual “US law”, as Snivystorm suggested, especially those used against the LGBT community, and finding suitable evidence will depend on you. GLAAD has accessible resources on their website for terms to avoid, however, this wording issue can only be resolved with empathy. Empathy can’t be forced even with the most irrefutable evidence—it’s just gonna have to be something you feel in your heart. In other words, evidence of a word being used as a slur is personal and emotional and not always scholarly or solid documentation. It’s irresponsible to reject change or improvement solely based on an absurd claim about lack of solid evidence for this issue. It’s not too much to ask for a gay video game character to be referred to with an appropriate label for his sexuality in a wiki article, and it doesn’t hurt to be respectful of people who take offense to “homosexual”, especially when there’s an appropriate label that can easily be used instead.

      I’ve already explained that “homosexual” might be a scientific or technical term to most people, but it has been historically used against gay people to dehumanize their same-gender attraction, sometimes even medically, and that’s where the discomfort or offense comes from. Please understand that I am not nor will I ever be comfortable discussing details about this so publicly and it’s insensitive to keep insisting that I elaborate when there’s free information online. The proof that a word is offensive towards a minority group is from that group’s collective personal experiences, and providing evidence for this shouldn’t be more than just an explanation.

      www.glaad.org/reference/offensive + Info about New York Times and AP's style guides.
      www.ign.com/wikis/the-last-of-us/Bill Bill's page on IGN.

      Again, I hope you guys can do better in the future.

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    • Ioverheardthis wrote: In other words, evidence of a word being used as a slur is personal and emotional and not always scholarly or solid documentation.

      We are a wikia so we take facts > feelings - no proof, then it can't be on the wiki.

      I’ve already explained that “homosexual” might be a scientific or technical term to most people, but it has been historically used against gay people to dehumanize their same-gender attraction, sometimes even medically, and that’s where the discomfort or offense comes from.

      I am respectfully requesting where you obtained this information. That is all I did. The US law would have something written explaining "homosexual" is some how a hate word therefore a hate crime if it was so offensive to use. Like I said, "homosexual" may be offensive to you but "gay" may be offensive to someone else. As previously stated, you can open a discussion to decide which word users as a whole would prefer to see on the articles.

      Side note: How come the first case on your username is a lower case? To my knowledge, that is not possible here at Wikia?

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    • Snivystorm wrote: Side note: How come the first case on your username is a lower case? To my knowledge, that is not possible here at Wikia?

      (Probably) Because it's not an L (assuming you're right) and is instead an uppercase i or special character. This is further supported by the concept of his name when spaced out in certain areas—l(insert space)overheard(insert space)this.

      Side Note: One of the admins never answered my question that I asked a while ago (regarding a policy).

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    • LightEcoSage wrote: Side Note: One of the admins never answered my question that I asked a while ago (regarding a policy).

      What policy was it? Also, given it will be a different topic to the matter here, I recommend you start a fresh message/discussion either elsewhere on my wall or another staff member's to ensure we do not clash with the topic being discussed here. Thanks!

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    • A FANDOM user
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